Ticketed in Houston....possibly CHL-related

[coog83]

This is mainly a rant, but I wanted to see how many of your have felt as though an LEO was more inclined to give you a ticket upon finding out about your CHL. I was driving downtown Houston with my wife, down Westheimer, right were it turns into Elgin, and I made a left turn onto Brazos. Next thing I know, both the vehicle in front of me, as well as myself, are cut off by an officer who parks his cruiser in the middle of the road, jumps out and furiously begins throwing his arms in the direction of the next cross street for us to pull over. Not too sure what was happening, I pulled over and rolled the window down and put my hands on the wheel. I had a puzzled look when he asked for my license and insurance and asked why I had been pulled over. He said I made an illegal left turn, which I had no idea I had done, and neither did my wife, who is very vigilant about me following traffic laws. I was very calm and polite, explaining to him that I live in Tomball and am not a frequent driver of downtown houston, not realizing what I had done. I gave him my DL, forgetting to give my CHL and inform him that I was armed, as this was the first time I've been pulled over since having my CHL. He got very impatient that I didn't have the insurance out yet, as I told my wife, "It's in the glovebox, in the owner's manual," which was very easy to get to. As he rushed us, he told me to have it ready when he returned from the vehicle in front of us. I had the insurance and immediately remembered about the CHL. I gave him both, and he flipped out. By flipped out, I mean that he tensed up, gritted his teeth and started shaking my license and insurance, telling me, "you realize that I can make one phone call, and you'll lose this for the rest of your life! You need to give this to me, first thing, or else! You understand me? You understand?" I just looked at him and said, "yes," thinking I was better off to keep my mouth shut and not inform him of his ignorance of the new modifications to the law. I made a diligent effort to display my CHL to him before he returned to his car.

I don't have a long record of tickets and have no warrants or criminal record. Staying calm and polite, however, did not seem to get me out of a ticket, because he returned from his car and shoved the clipboard in the window, saying, "sign this." There wasn't the typical, "this is not a guilty plea, but an agreement to show up in court, etc.." I asked if it was a citation or a written warning(yes, I've seen written warnings before,) and he once again got nasty.

After all of this, I'm not sure whether this guy was having a bad day, was peed about my CHL, it was the end of the month, or what. I drive a newer toyota corolla base model, and my wife and I are average suburbanites. So, has anybody ever had this kind of experience with an LEO when pulled over for something like this?

Just a warning for all of you who live in Houston, watch out for the Eastbound Westheimer/Elgin intersection at Brazos. Brazos may be a one way going left, but it's VERY confusing in a split second decision. The signs say, "no turns," and are all right next to left facing one way signs. No ghost busters signs ANYWHERE like you would normally see on a no left turn sign. It gives the impression of the obvious, which would be no right turn. Maybe I'm sounding like an oblivious idiot, but I just thought I would share this.

[surprise_i'm_armed]

coog83:
"his ignorance of the modification of the law".

It's unfortunate that the signage was confusing and you got a violation.

Since you had to get a CHL to have your gun on you as you drive around,
the possession of these 2 items should be inextricably linked in your mind.

Failing to have your DL and CHL together in your wallet, and passing them
to the LEO, was a major faux pas on your part. The law says that you are to
present your CHL to a LEO any time he asks for ID, and you are carrying.

IIRC, the only modification to the law is that there is no longer a punishment for failing to do so.

Sometimes we CHL's would like to believe that having a CHL just might tip a LEO to cut us slack
after being stopped for a traffic violation.

You may have gotten your ticket anyway, but failing to provide your CHL as required may have
negated any positive effect your CHL may have garnered you.

Good luck in the future.

SIA

[OldSchool]

Several years ago, we had a similar incident with a Houston PD person(ality) when I made a similar mistake (due to a sign that did not correctly represent the lanes) at 610 feeder and Kirby. Extremely rude, almost hostile, he refused to even tell us what I had done wrong until he shoved the citation at me. I thought at the time it might have been due to my going a couple hundred feet further to find a spot to pull off that was safe for all of us (since the traffic flow around us was at its normal 15mph over the posted speed).

From my experience and yours (and many similar stories I've been told about the HPD), I now suspect it has more to do with the person(ality) we were dealing with.

[boomerang]

This is mainly a rant, but I wanted to see how many of your have felt as though an LEO was more inclined to give you a ticket upon finding out about your CHL.

Never thought it made a difference. The only time I ever got a warning during a traffic stop was back in high school.

[coog83]

I totally agree with you there about that I should have presented it immediately. I was flustered and confused at the moment, as well as rushed by our friendly LEO, though that should be no excuse. Only thing was, I keep the CHL a few cards back in my ID/License/Credit card stack, as per my CHL instructor. He said, as has been recommended by many here on the board, to avoid showing your CHL to anyone when giving your ID.(Except LEOs of course!) I'll have to just rethink my game plan for the future. Hopefully, the attorney I contacted gets this all taken care of for me, and after the 90 day probation period they said will probably happen, we can forget about this and the 4-500 dollars I'm about to shell out.

[rm9792]

I totally agree with you there about that I should have presented it immediately. I was flustered and confused at the moment, as well as rushed by our friendly LEO, though that should be no excuse. Only thing was, I keep the CHL a few cards back in my ID/License/Credit card stack, as per my CHL instructor. He said, as has been recommended by many here on the board, to avoid showing your CHL to anyone when giving your ID.(Except LEOs of course!) I'll have to just rethink my game plan for the future. Hopefully, the attorney I contacted gets this all taken care of for me, and after the 90 day probation period they said will probably happen, we can forget about this and the 4-500 dollars I'm about to shell out.

Why shell out the money, ask for a jury trial and go to court over it. Worst that can happen is you still have to shell out the money. Play the game by their rules, reset your court date, then have a good chance the officer doesnt show up. I have done this and you got a 50/50 shot at coming out with just a parking tab. Regardless of whether or not you presented a chl he had no business beiong rude, yelling, or misquoting the law. I would (and have done) called his supervisor for a corrective training session on the law regarding CHL. This guy is on a power trip "you realize that I can make one phone call, and you'll lose this for the rest of your life! You need to give this to me, first thing, or else! You understand me? You understand?" that needs to be rectified. He has no business with a badge.

[Mike1951]

Hopefully, the attorney I contacted gets this all taken care of for me, and after the 90 day probation period they said will probably happen, we can forget about this and the 4-500 dollars I'm about to shell out.

I'm sorry, but why an attorney?, what 90 day probation?, what $4-500 dollars?

There is no penalty for not showing your CHL. Unless I overlooked something, you were cited for an improper left turn.

I've never used an attorney for a traffic offense. I would ask whether this is something that could be taken care of with defensive driving.

[coog83]

I took defensive driving about 6 months ago, so I'm kinda outta luck in terms of doing that route. The attorney is 70 bucks, the ticket is about 200, and the courts fees if I lose and end up with deferment is 200 bucks. If anybody can advise me on a similar experience on representing yourself when clearly guilty, feel free to offer your advice. I'm not sure how much a judge is going to believe me that I didn't know I did it, but MAYBE, if the taking trial by jury, and they're not too irritated about being there with some guy trying to get out of a ticket, I can get a dismissal based upon the confusion caused by the signs. I DID take pictures of the intersection.

The idea behind the attorney is to get the offense removed from my record, since I already took defensive driving in the last 12 months.

[Mike1951]

Wow! I've never had a ticket where the fine and court costs approached $200 combined!

You've taken the pictures. The other good advice was to reschedule once. If the officer doesn't appear, it stands a good chance of being dismissed.

It would be nice to know how many similar tickets were issued at the same intersection, but don't know how you'd get that info.

Put together a coherent presentation with your pictures, remaining calm and unemotional.

Good luck!

[Dragonfighter]

Regardless of whether or not you presented a chl he had no business beiong rude, yelling, or misquoting the law. I would (and have done) called his supervisor for a corrective training session on the law regarding CHL. This guy is on a power trip "you realize that I can make one phone call, and you'll lose this for the rest of your life! You need to give this to me, first thing, or else! You understand me? You understand?" that needs to be rectified. He has no business with a badge.

+1, you have this guy's name and badge number on the citation, file a complaint stating you felt he was "unstable". They will pull his tapes in a heartbeat which they have for thirty days. Even if you weren't on dash-cam the audio is still recorded. Bad day or not, he is held to a professional standard he cast aside. Complaining will not excuse the ticket in all likelihood but you can keep this yahoo from being a problem to someone else. If he is that hot headed over a left turn, God help anyone that commits a more blatant error.

As to the ticket, defensive driving...less than a hundred bucks and the ticket goes away. Sounds like it'd do you some good too

Was the defensive driving to dismiss a ticket? That's what the deal hinges on. They will ask you, have you gotten a dismissal by taking defensive driving in the last two years? Or words to that effect.

Added in edit again:

The attorney is 70 bucks, the ticket is about 200, and the courts fees if I lose and end up with deferment is 200 bucks.

$200?
That was some left turn.

[rm9792]

In my experience they have never had a jury trial for a ticket. there are just too many serious cases to mess with those. They do have them for accidents and really egregious offenses (dwi, 70mph in school zone) but not likely for a little turning offense. You can skip it all and request deferred adjudication which costs the fine but no record and no classes. I usually do that if ticketed. If I have the time available I go the jury route, working nights this is pretty easy for me but most day workers dont have the time for 2 court trips. An attorney can not "get it removed" from your record. If convicted it stays, if acquitted it was never there. Only gray area is the def adj I mentioned because it is a pleading of "no contest" but goes away if you complete the "probation" time the judge gives you. I have gotten anywhere from 3 months to 1 year. Yes I like to drive fast, but not crazy or unsafe. I dont drink, smoke or do drugs so gotta have some bad habit. IANAL but have enough court time to know how it works. Good news in Houston is they are contracting out the prosecutorial work (also pro bono) and there are some really cute young lawyers doing their time.

[casingpoint]

Be interesting to see if he would pass a drug screen. It happens. Sounds like a tweaker. How were his teeth?

[rm9792]

Be interesting to see if he would pass a drug screen. It happens. Sounds like a tweaker. How were his teeth?

Been casing the property room before his shift?

[srothstein]

If anybody can advise me on a similar experience on representing yourself when clearly guilty, feel free to offer your advice.

I am not familiar with the Houston courts, but almost all big city courts are interested in fiens and settling tickets as quickly as possible. Without an attorney, go to the prosecutor and ask for a plea bargain for deferred adjudication. Offer to pay the normal amount for the ticket as a probation fee in return for 90 ro 180 days of probation. They will normally accept (the ones in the San Antonio and Austin area at least0. You are giving the city the money they want, settling a case without a trial, and keeping your record clear (assuming you don't get another ticket during the probation period). this is all a lawyer could do for you anyway.

There is a limit of one defensive driving dismissal per year, but there is no limit on the deferred adjudication plea bargains that I am aware of (there might be, it has been a few years since I wrote any traffic tickets).

[rm9792]

Usually the judge wont allow a second def adj in his court but I have had 1 in 3 different cities at once before. The second ticket in the same court usually will negate the def adj and put both on your record. Real important to stay clean while on probation. A conviction in any Texas court will also negate the Def Adj and put it on your record.