PA CHL is a bit primative

[1981]

Got my Non Res PA CHL today. I had planned to use it as a backup for my Tx CHL, just in case I ever forgot to carry it. Well, now I'm kinda wondering if any self respecting LEO is going to accept it as a valid permit. For those who don't know, the license itself is a 3 X 5 paper form with typewriter printing. Says "Pennsylvania license to carry firearms" in the top left corner in small print, kinda looks like a small W-2. It looks a little homemade, no seals, no photo, handwritten license number, doesn't say "concealed" on it anywhere, etc. Now, on the pro side, all I had to do was send $26 to the Centre County Sheriff, and they turned it around in about a week. And I'm sure it will cover me once I get to court, but I'm not sure it will keep me from getting arrested. Anybody out there ever have an opportunity to use one of these, either here or anywhere else? Should I keep the reciprocity agreement on me as well?!

[Carrots]

When considering the "saving" of $26 Vs $140 I would take paper any day of the week, even if it looked a little homemade.

[1981]

When considering the "saving" of $26 Vs $140 I would take paper any day of the week, even if it looked a little homemade.

Yeah, I spent a good chunk of money (for me) on buying a handgun, license fees, class costs, ammo, etc. I couldn't really justify putting many more FRNs into this little initiative of mine, but I really wanted to have a backup in case I didn't have my Tx license on me one day. (Who hasn't forgotten or lost their wallet at least once?). Also, I wanted to be able to carry if my wallet gets stolen and I've got to wait 2 months to get a replacement out of DPS. So this is a compromise, but I hope it will work. It's kind of the poor man's Utah/Florida CHL. Plus it's a five year license, so I'll be covered if renewal gets delayed for some reason.

[dayo]

I don't know what the Delaware county pa sheriff's requirements are, but when I was a resident there I just went, filled out a form and within 2 weeks got a photo id license back - resident of course. PA is a real Shall issue state - unlike tx. PA actually follows their own law (outside Philly/Pittsburgh). I do not know that the Delaware county non-resident requirements are but here's a link- http://www.co.delaware.pa.us/sheriff/weapons.html

[03Lightningrocks]

When considering the "saving" of $26 Vs $140 I would take paper any day of the week, even if it looked a little homemade.

Yeah, I spent a good chunk of money (for me) on buying a handgun, license fees, class costs, ammo, etc. I couldn't really justify putting many more FRNs into this little initiative of mine, but I really wanted to have a backup in case I didn't have my Tx license on me one day. (Who hasn't forgotten or lost their wallet at least once?). Also, I wanted to be able to carry if my wallet gets stolen and I've got to wait 2 months to get a replacement out of DPS. So this is a compromise, but I hope it will work. It's kind of the poor man's Utah/Florida CHL. Plus it's a five year license, so I'll be covered if renewal gets delayed for some reason.

The UTAH permit is a good choice for a "back up". It cost 67 bucks and ten bucks to renew. The class is half a day and only costs 75 bucks with no shooting required. No class needed for renewal. It looks kinda like the Texas CHL except is says Utah on it. I was thinking about getting a PA CHL until I just read your post. I dunno about it now. I am surprised Texas recognizes it after reading what it takes to get one.

[ScottDLS]

I'm on my second Centre County, PA non-res permit. First time they made me sign the paper and send it back to them. There was an option to add a photo but I didn't. They shrank it to credit card size and sent it back to me laminated. This time ('bout 6mo ago) they just sent me the little flimsy paper. I like the low tech approach. Kind of the opposite of the new US Passport w/ the embedded chip w/ biometric data, laser photo, and high tech anti-copy technology. OK for a Passport, but I want a gun permit that can be shielded by my tin foil hat...

[dicion]

I don't know what the Delaware county pa sheriff's requirements are, but when I was a resident there I just went, filled out a form and within 2 weeks got a photo id license back - resident of course. PA is a real Shall issue state - unlike tx. PA actually follows their own law (outside Philly/Pittsburgh). I do not know that the Delaware county non-resident requirements are but here's a link- http://www.co.delaware.pa.us/sheriff/weapons.html

According to their apps there, for a non-resident permit, you have to apply in-person. Can't do it by mail.

[ralewis]

I'm from PA and have carried there when travelling from TX with my Texas CHL, so I know a little bit about what the LTC (license to carry) means. My dad and uncle have licenses there, and it's pathetically easy to get one. No course or test. Just a form to fill out.

It's not illegal to open carry. The LTC covers you for both open and concealed -- I think it's specifically illegal to open carry without a LTC in Philadelphia/Pittsburg.

Overall, PA is an exceptionally cool state with regard to carry -- i've carried in CO, PA, NC, MO, Ok, FL, and TX and PA seems to have the least unfriendly gun laws of all of them. Shockingly, souch a north eastern state has few gun laws. No prohibition on carrying in a bar or sporting event. Court houses are required (I believe) to have lock boxes for firearms and you check them like a hat if you go there. No provision for an enforceable sign posting like we have in TX.

[Ropin]

One other thing about PA... I'm not certain of the exact wording of the law, but you can be actively seeking psych treatment, say for hearing voices which think you should kill folks, and still receive a license to carry.

I've been told the difference maker is if you've ever been committed against your will, but again, I cannot cite law on that one. Purely anecdotal experiences.

[shootthesheet]

I agree the PA LTC is better in most ways. The problem PA has is that a few of their cities are trying to make laws outside of the preemption laws and the state is having a time fighting it. Cities may not make laws stricter than state law in PA but that doesn't mean a license holder won't get slammed in these urban areas as I understand things.

I copied my LTC and made it smaller then laminated it to make it easer to carry. I keep the original as is and leave it in the safe for back up. I do that because it is possible that TDPS can suspend a CHL for a mistake and time pass without us knowing. In the rare chance that would happen and I have to shoot I would still be covered under the PA LTC. I just have to try to remember to tell the LEO I have a PA LTC too and put that in my statement. Who knows if I would or if I could just make the fact known later if they went after me because of a problem with my CHL that I didn't know about. I checked the PA law and it was OKAY to modify the license to be able to carry it more easily. Don't take my word without checking for yourself if you plan on doing this. I don't think a copy of the Utah or Florida CCW is legal so that is another consideration. If we get a wallet stolen then we are in a hard place. I also have a TX ID Card I keep in the safe so I will have an ID to present with the PA license if I get robbed or whatever. National Right to Carry being enacted won't change me wanting a PA LTC because of these reasons

[ralewis]

I agree the PA LTC is better in most ways. The problem PA has is that a few of their cities are trying to make laws outside of the preemption laws and the state is having a time fighting it. Cities may not make laws stricter than state law in PA but that doesn't mean a license holder won't get slammed in these urban areas as I understand things.

I copied my LTC and made it smaller then laminated it to make it easer to carry. I keep the original as is and leave it in the safe for back up. I do that because it is possible that TDPS can suspend a CHL for a mistake and time pass without us knowing. In the rare chance that would happen and I have to shoot I would still be covered under the PA LTC. I just have to try to remember to tell the LEO I have a PA LTC too and put that in my statement. Who knows if I would or if I could just make the fact known later if they went after me because of a problem with my CHL that I didn't know about. I checked the PA law and it was OKAY to modify the license to be able to carry it more easily. Don't take my word without checking for yourself if you plan on doing this. I don't think a copy of the Utah or Florida CCW is legal so that is another consideration. If we get a wallet stolen then we are in a hard place. I also have a TX ID Card I keep in the safe so I will have an ID to present with the PA license if I get robbed or whatever. National Right to Carry being enacted won't change me wanting a PA LTC because of these reasons

Something seems wrong with having your license suspended in TX but being able to carry on a non-resident license. I wonder how that would be received by the cop you explained that to. Also, the basis for your PA LTC was your TX CHL correct? That was my understanding with the Center County Sheriff. You send him a copy of the license with a photo and they send you a PA non-res back? If this is the way it works, does that mean your PA LTC is invalidated because the basis for it has been revoked/suspended?

[srothstein]

Something seems wrong with having your license suspended in TX but being able to carry on a non-resident license. I wonder how that would be received by the cop you explained that to.

I would not recommend carrying under an out of state license if you Texas CHL is suspended. The Penal Code allows the exception if you are carrying under a valid license issued under Chapter 411. This includes out of state licenses, so I think the state would claim your privilege from any state has also been suspended if your Texas CHL is.

This is one of the areas where working like a driver's license could work against us. Way back in the day, when people commonly had licenses from multiple states, Texas viewed your driver's license as suspended no matter where it was from if you had a suspended license in Texas. Now that we are forced into just one state for a DL, the law still forbids issuing a license in Texas if it is suspended elsewhere. Even today, if an officer ran your name and got a suspended Texas DL, he would charge you with DWLI even if you had a valid PA driver's license.

As an aside, the OP has made me think of a very interesting point. I am not sure the average cop recognizes that a Texas resident can carry on an out of state license to begin with. I doubt the average cop would recognize one if given it. I don't think there is any way to validate the out of state license in a reasonable amount of time (I think you would need to send the other state an administrative message through NCIC, there is no general query on it I know of). I think I would tend to assume it is valid if it looked valid, but I was not aware of any paper licenses like that (I have never seen an out of state CHL on the street yet). I would not bet on the average cop accepting a paper CHL like that.

The good news is that if it came up in a shooting, the average cop would be more worried about the shoot being legal or not, and the carrying is for later on. But, this is most likely to come up during a traffic stop (especially the scenario of Texas CHL suspended, which he would get on his return), and I don't know how the cop would handle it.

[shootthesheet]

The last two posters missed the point. My post was about a gap in time between when the license was wrongly suspended and the time I was notified.

I am not a lawyer but a TX CHL is under the authority of the State of Texas and a PA LTC is under the authority of the State of PA. So unless there is a law in Texas that denies a person the privilege to carry on a non-resident license while TX has suspended the CHL they can. I don't know of one but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The PA LTC is ISSUED because the person has a valid resident license in their state so that has nothing to do with their ability to carry on it. If my license was suspended for a valid reason I would notify PA and they may decide what they want to do. The thing is that people who cannot qualify for a TX CHL as a resident of this state legally carry on a non-resident license in this state. I encourage people to get a TX CHL to support the issue here but some people can't or refuse to.

[ralewis]

The last two posters missed the point. My post was about a gap in time between when the license was wrongly suspended and the time I was notified.

With all due respect, I don't think I missed the point at all....My point was how it would look to be carrying on a non-res license if you TX license was suspended? I also stated that your PA LTC is based on your TX CHL, so that would remove the pre-requisite for having the PA LTC (not saying that PA would revoke it -- I have no idea if they would).

I'm guessing you would be cited for UCW if the officer determined you were carrying if you had a suspended TX CHL in TX. I also think you are being a bit paranoid for carrying a spare license to plan for the (unlikely) eventuality that your license would be suspended and you not know it (whether it was justifiably suspended or not). There are very few cases where your license would be suspended and you wouldn't know it it IMO.

Pease...Not trying to be argumentative here. I just don't see the how carrying a PA LTC gets you much in TX.

[Carrots]

EDIT - Two threads running into one