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So our church is getting serious on security (as it should be). We have actually just put together a security team. We also have an officer who works in the sherrif's department that is a new member of our church. They asked him to have a meeting tonight to discuss some security risks, ideas, etc.

First thing I noticed about him when he walked to the front to start talking was that he was printing badly.

The meeting was going good. Talking about fire extinguishers, evac. plans, locking doors, etc. Somewhere in the middle, he said that he looked like a normal guy. Till I and a few others called him on printing. So he pulled up his shirt and revealed his pistol. Meeting continued...

Then at the very end he said that we should also consider not allowing people to carry concealed, meaning people with CHLs. He said that if the cops show up for an active shooter situation and you have a gun in your hand then they will shoot you. He also said that the avg CHL holder qualifies once. SWAT team qualifies twice a month or something like that.

In the end, he does not get to make the decision on whether or not the church posts 30.06 or not. But he has already gave his opinion on the mater to the security team and Im sure the pastor as well.

I want to talk to the pastor about my opinion on CHLers. How do you advise I do so? What statistics are there? Has any CHLer ever been shot by police thinking he was the bad guy? How many CHLers have stopped an active shooter in church?

I know this is the church God wants me at. And if it comes down to it I would have to say that I would obey a 30.06 is posted and would not leave the church over it. But I want to make my voice be heard before that happens. Any advice would be much appreciated!

Thank you!

Great post. I would recommend you ask the head of security for a meeting with the Pastor and voice your opinion. I think the officer is wrong and should view CHL'rs as on hand deputies. They can respond to a threat much faster that 911.

RiveraRa wrote:So our church is getting serious on security (as it should be). We have actually just put together a security team. We also have an officer who works in the sherrif's department that is a new member of our church. They asked him to have a meeting tonight to discuss some security risks, ideas, etc.

First thing I noticed about him when he walked to the front to start talking was that he was printing badly.

The meeting was going good. Talking about fire extinguishers, evac. plans, locking doors, etc. Somewhere in the middle, he said that he looked like a normal guy. Till I and a few others called him on printing. So he pulled up his shirt and revealed his pistol. Meeting continued...

Then at the very end he said that we should also consider not allowing people to carry concealed, meaning people with CHLs. He said that if the cops show up for an active shooter situation and you have a gun in your hand then they will shoot you. He also said that the avg CHL holder qualifies once. SWAT team qualifies twice a month or something like that.
In the end, he does not get to make the decision on whether or not the church posts 30.06 or not. But he has already gave his opinion on the mater to the security team and Im sure the pastor as well.

I want to talk to the pastor about my opinion on CHLers. How do you advise I do so? What statistics are there? Has any CHLer ever been shot by police thinking he was the bad guy? How many CHLers have stopped an active shooter in church?

I know this is the church God wants me at. And if it comes down to it I would have to say that I would obey a 30.06 is posted and would not leave the church over it. But I want to make my voice be heard before that happens. Any advice would be much appreciated!

Thank you!

Does this mean this guy will no longer be carrying? If the church posts, it will be advertising to the BG's that no one is armed. If he follows his own advice and no longer carries to church there would be no defense should an incident occur. If he thinks he is the only one qualified, safe enough or the only one the police wouldn't shoot (whatever his reasoning is?) hopefully he will be there at that one service that the need arose. Obviously the chances are very good that nothing will ever happen, but if it did, I hope the church didn't take this guys advice on posting.

My suggestion would be to take a report on the shootings at the Colorado church to the pastor. Point out that the person that stopped the criminal was just a citizen with a CHL. She may have had law enforcement training in the past, but she was just a CHL.

Then show him the reports on Columbine and Virginia Tech. Ask him if he would rather have someone on hand who could stop the criminal immediately or wait for the police response?

That should convince him.

cowboymd wrote:

RiveraRa wrote:So our church is getting serious on security (as it should be). We have actually just put together a security team. We also have an officer who works in the sherrif's department that is a new member of our church. They asked him to have a meeting tonight to discuss some security risks, ideas, etc.

First thing I noticed about him when he walked to the front to start talking was that he was printing badly.

The meeting was going good. Talking about fire extinguishers, evac. plans, locking doors, etc. Somewhere in the middle, he said that he looked like a normal guy. Till I and a few others called him on printing. So he pulled up his shirt and revealed his pistol. Meeting continued...

Then at the very end he said that we should also consider not allowing people to carry concealed, meaning people with CHLs. He said that if the cops show up for an active shooter situation and you have a gun in your hand then they will shoot you. He also said that the avg CHL holder qualifies once. SWAT team qualifies twice a month or something like that.
In the end, he does not get to make the decision on whether or not the church posts 30.06 or not. But he has already gave his opinion on the mater to the security team and Im sure the pastor as well.

I want to talk to the pastor about my opinion on CHLers. How do you advise I do so? What statistics are there? Has any CHLer ever been shot by police thinking he was the bad guy? How many CHLers have stopped an active shooter in church?

I know this is the church God wants me at. And if it comes down to it I would have to say that I would obey a 30.06 is posted and would not leave the church over it. But I want to make my voice be heard before that happens. Any advice would be much appreciated!

Thank you!

Does this mean this guy will no longer be carrying? If the church posts, it will be advertising to the BG's that no one is armed. If he follows his own advice and no longer carries to church there would be no defense should an incident occur. If he thinks he is the only one qualified, safe enough or the only one the police wouldn't shoot (whatever his reasoning is?) hopefully he will be there at that one service that the need arose. Obviously the chances are very good that nothing will ever happen, but if it did, I hope the church didn't take this guys advice on posting.

You can be sure he will carry. He has shown that he believes himself to be the only one in the room competent enough to carry a gun. UUUUHhh we heard that before didnt we.

Then at the very end he said that we should also consider not allowing people to carry concealed, meaning people with CHLs. He said that if the cops show up for an active shooter situation and you have a gun in your hand then they will shoot you. He also said that the avg CHL holder qualifies once. SWAT team qualifies twice a month or something like that.

With a few CHL holders, legally carrying in the church, there won't be an "active shooter situation" when the police arrive. All the police will need to bring are there pens and paper to take statements.

Is this church in a metropolitan area where a SWAT team is close and on standby or is it out in the boonies where a posse would have to be formed? Either way, the Rev should listen to all of his parishoners not just Deputy Dawg.

Swat teams are not suited up ready to go. They take much longer to respond en masse.
This is pretty much ego driven hogwash.

perhaps a demonstration is in order, and can be used as training for the SWAT team. Get with the head of security, the pastor, and the deputy and perhaps arrange for two scenarios. Both should take place in the church (out side of regular hours), the first one you have an active shooter (use blue guns, or brightly colored water guns if the blue guns are not available), and have CHL holder respond to the threat. The second is setup the same as the first, but the SWAT team who is made aware in advance, is waiting, and 100% sure this is a drill drive from their usual staging area and respond. The drill will get the SWAT team on site faster than a real call would as they are already at their staging area and waiting, but the pastor and head of security can see the difference in response times and have that burned into their memory.

Secondly ANY AGENCY, LEO, or training program that specifically mentions a policy of "shooting anyone they see with a gun" when they respond is ignorant, dangerous, and a liability. As a CHL holder responding to a threat I must identify if a potential threat is really a threat or someone who recently stopped the threat in advance of me. LEOs have this same responsibility by law, but training, policy, or rambo-isms may make them think otherwise which must be corrected.

G.A. Heath wrote:

...but the pastor and head of security can see the difference in response times and have that burned into their memory.

Didn't you say that the SWAT team knew in advance and was already on site or did I misread your suggestion? I somehow thought that part of the equation was the response team of a distant and unarmed SWAT team vs the response time of the CHL's in the congregation?

By on site I meant they were already at their staging location, after I posted it I went back end edited to reflect my intention. You can't really have a training or demonstration exercise where they don't know its not real or someone can/will get hurt.

Thanks everyone!

I totally agree with everything said. This guy totally thinks he is an only one. Two questions though...

1) What are the laws regarding off duty officers and concealed carry? Do they need a CHL and are they bound by CHL laws? Are they allowed to brandish like he did last night just because he is a LEO? As an off duty officer does he have to comply with a posted 30.06?

2) Does anyone have any stats concerning CHL carriers being shot because they were mistaken by the police to be the threat? Any good sites for CHL statistics?

The funny thing is he stated himself that because we are in a rural area outside of the city that it would take a while for the police to show up. And like everyone was saying...there would be no active shooter by the time the LEOs got there.

Oldgringo wrote:

Is this church in a metropolitan area where a SWAT team is close and on standby or is it out in the boonies where a posse would have to be formed? Either way, the Rev should listen to all of his parishoners not just Deputy Dawg.

<Barney_Fife_tone_of_voice> But, Andy.....We've got to nip it in the bud!!!! Nip it!!! Nip it!!! Nip it!!! </Barney_Fife_tone_of_voice>

I'd try to arrange a meeting with the pastor, the officer, and the head of security. Make certain that the pastor knows what the 30.06 sign means (heck, make sure the officer understands the implications), and state that if the sign goes up, I'd be forced to worship elsewhere, and take my tithe with me.

HighVelocity wrote:With a few CHL holders, legally carrying in the church, there won't be an "active shooter situation" when the police arrive. All the police will need to bring are there pens and paper to take statements.

and a zip-up plastic bag!