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Having read many others' accounts of self defense situations, I thought I would share my experience with the board. This specific event is also the reason I finally followed through with getting my CHL & started being more aware of my surroundings. Perhaps you all can help me make sense of it. My apologies if it turns out LONG!

This occurred shortly after Christmas 2006. My wife and I decided to go into town for supper since our daughter was spending the night at the MIL's house. We arrived at the restaurant parking lot at around 7:00pm. We saw a couple we knew in the PL and decided to dine with them. The meal and conversation lasted about 2 hours. We four then decided to call it a night and return to our homes.

The other couple exited in front and was about 40ft ahead of us in the PL. The PL was devoid of people; only vehicles on both sides. We were walking side by side to our Tahoe. I am then COMPLETELY suprised by 20-25ish white male planting his shoulder square into my back in a full run! This causes me to stumble forward and nearly fall. Keep in mind: this is a large PL with PLENTY of room on either side of us. This was NOT accidental. He then continued to run ahead of me (between us and our vehicle) about 20ft and turned to face me. I then told him that his actions were not appreciated.

Then I notice two other males advancing towards me, one from each side. They go to stand on both sides of the first fellow and all advance to directly in front of me. I placed myself in front of my wife during the advance. I am completely unarmed. My pocket knife was used to open presents a few days earlier and was misplaced. I am far from a "seasoned fighter", but have always been able to hold my own in a fight having had some hand to hand training in the military. But 3 on 1 was not going to be fun.

No words were spoken. The center guy then throws a punch which lands on the left side of my face. Then the one on my left tried to tackle me at the waist, while the other two starts throwing punches to the right and rear of my head and upper body. I vividly remember what sounded to me like a gong going of in my head with every blow . My wife ran, at this point, to the other couple SCREAMING HER HEAD OFF!

I was able to disengage the one at the waist and land a left punch to his face that sent him to the pavement. Then a right reverse elbow to the mouth of the one on my right(he ended up quite bloody). I turned to engage the one to the rear when the other two grab me from behind and all three lift me up into the air and slam me to the ground. All three then proceed to kick me while im on the ground. I was able to return to my feet, only to be greeted by another bum rush. I just started throwing punch after punch after punch, hitting anything I could.

At this point, employees of the establishment run out into the PL and loudly exclaim that the cops have been called and are on the way. They immediately disengage and high-tail it to their truck and proceed to go the wrong way down a one-way street, leaving me just standing there. I was exhausted. Fights don't happen like in the movie folks. The couple and my wife came to me and escorted me to our SUV and said for us to just go home. Not thinking real clearly at that point, I agreed. My wife drove me away.

Inspecting myself in the vehicle I discovered that my left hand was bleeding and had a broken finger and my right elbow had a pretty deep cut, and once the adrenaline wore off, i was SORE. In addition, both of my necklaces (my cross and my anchor) were missing. We drove home and cleaned up.

My wife was very traumatized about the whole thing and still refuses to return there. Now I still to this day do not know what this attack was about. Attempted robbery? Random act of violence? Racism(I am half Korean)? Young guys boozed up looking for a fight? All I know is I am VERY fortunate they had no weapons.

I just thought I would share my experience if anything just to get it off my chest. I am not traumatized, suspicious, fearful or paranoid. Just armed and ready to protect my family and myself from future transgressions.

Thanks

Edit: Moderators, if this is not the proper place for this type of post, feel free to move.

Since you didn't file a police report, and they were never arrested for this, you will likely never know why.

People respond to alcohol differently, but some people are mean drunks. Our youth pastor was attacked a few weeks ago, and it was simply a mean drunk looking for a fight. He saw a vulnerable person (youth pastor had been walking with a slight limp since back surgery a few weeks prior), and the predator saw someone he thought he could overtake.

These men you describe saw a man and his wife in the parking lot. (I'm unclear if the other couple were in their vehicle or not.) There may have been a bit of the mob mindset working in them as well. You were vulnerable and they attacked.

I really wish you would have filed a police report. You had your wife and another couple to act as witnesses. Chances are, restaurant staff may have reported favorably for you as well.

I hate it when it takes an act of violence to bring folks to an understanding of how troubled our world is & how important situation awareness is. It is good that you were not critically injured & you have learned a great deal.

you wrote:
I just thought I would share my experience if anything just to get it off my chest. I am not traumatized, suspicious, fearful or paranoid. Just armed and ready to protect my family and myself from future transgressions.

Talking it out is good & especially in the company of like thinkers. It is good that this has no made you bitter agains others. It is great that you are no prepared.

Venus Pax wrote:Since you didn't file a police report, and they were never arrested for this, you will likely never know why.

People respond to alcohol differently, but some people are mean drunks. Our youth pastor was attacked a few weeks ago, and it was simply a mean drunk looking for a fight. He saw a vulnerable person (youth pastor had been walking with a slight limp since back surgery a few weeks prior), and the predator saw someone he thought he could overtake.

These men you describe saw a man and his wife in the parking lot. (I'm unclear if the other couple were in their vehicle or not.) There may have been a bit of the mob mindset working in them as well. You were vulnerable and they attacked.

I really wish you would have filed a police report. You had your wife and another couple to act as witnesses. Chances are, restaurant staff may have reported favorably for you as well.

I'm sorry to hear about your youth pastor. That is so cowardly!

The other couple had made it to but not in their vehicle.

I should have, but like I said, after all that I was exhausted and not thinking clearly. The staff only caught the tail end of it and acted more like we were ALL offenders. Not real friendly.

I'm just SO GRATEFUL my daughter was not with us!

longtooth wrote:I hate it when it takes an act of violence to bring folks to an understanding of how troubled our world is & how important situation awareness is. It is good that you were not critically injured & you have learned a great deal.

you wrote:
I just thought I would share my experience if anything just to get it off my chest. I am not traumatized, suspicious, fearful or paranoid. Just armed and ready to protect my family and myself from future transgressions.

Talking it out is good & especially in the company of like thinkers. It is good that this has no made you bitter agains others. It is great that you are no prepared.

Thanks LT! I love this board and the people that frequent it. Best reading on the net .

A lot of times that is what it takes. That "notgunnahappentuhme syndrome" & "nuthinbadhappensinasmalltown-itis". Some people don't learn even after something like this. My wife is convinced now!

Never again.

Will,

Very sorry to hear what you experienced and glad you are ok. I do have a question for you. If you had been armed, do you think you would have had time to draw your gun as the event unfolded as it did. Sounds like you were being attacked in multiple directions during the entire event. Seem like the only time you could have drawn would have been from the very beginning or at the very end.

JR

hsp wrote:Will,

Very sorry to hear what you experienced and glad you are ok. I do have a question for you. If you had been armed, do you think you would have had time to draw your gun as the event unfolded as it did. Sounds like you were being attacked in multiple directions during the entire event. Seem like the only time you could have drawn would have been from the very beginning or at the very end.

JR

That is a very good question. I have replayed the event in my mind many times. They never verbalized any threat. They never produced any weapons. What occurred was really just the unlawful use of FORCE not DEADLY FORCE (unless you attempt to apply disparity of force or blows to the head as a reason it qualified as deadly force). As the situation actually happened, I don't think I would have been able to draw at any point except POSSIBLY when I was on the ground being kicked and stomped. HOWEVER.....If this was to happen again tomorrow I would NOT ALLOW myself to be caught by surprise, verbally challenged his approach, watch for the production of a weapon and go from there.

I'm sorry if I doesn't answer your question. But in that situation, had I drawn and shot them all down just from the approach, obviously I would have been hung from the yardarm. Perhaps merely drawing the firearm would have sent them running. Or it could have escalated it to a 3 on 1 gun-battle. If I drew and fired after, it might be construed that I was just mad I got my butt kicked. All of these things have run through my mind. My ultimate conclusion was that I would:

1) notice the threat BEFORE it was IN MY FACE
2) verbally express that I wanted no trouble, and to back away
3) if the advance of three men towards my wife and me continued, I would draw the weapon(they ain't tryin' to give me a hug)
4) if they run, good(not everybody is afraid of guns pointed at them). if they attempt to produce weapons, fire. if they just continue to approach, they are idiots and I'm going to have to make a difficult split second decision based on the totality of the situation.

Hopefully regardless of outcome a jury would side with a married couple having dinner rather than 3 street thugs looking for trouble.

This is situation when (a CHLer or not) having a weapon stored in the car can end this type of sudden victimization very quickly or even save a life.

Glad to hear yall made it out okay.

Winston33 wrote:This is situation when (a CHLer or not) having a weapon stored in the car can end this type of sudden victimization very quickly or even save a life.

Glad to hear yall made it out okay.

Thank you very much.

I agree somewhat. In our situation, we were cut off from our vehicle. Gun in the car would not have been good enough. My wife had OC spray in the car. We just couldn't get to it. I had my hands full and she was freaked out.

Will wrote:

Winston33 wrote:This is situation when (a CHLer or not) having a weapon stored in the car can end this type of sudden victimization very quickly or even save a life.

Glad to hear yall made it out okay.

Thank you very much.

I agree somewhat. In our situation, we were cut off from our vehicle. Gun in the car would not have been good enough. My wife had OC spray in the car. We just couldn't get to it. I had my hands full and she was freaked out.

Yes, but the other couple could have. Imagine yourself in their place with access to a firearm, and the possibilities open up considerably.

Will wrote:

hsp wrote:Will,

Very sorry to hear what you experienced and glad you are ok. I do have a question for you. If you had been armed, do you think you would have had time to draw your gun as the event unfolded as it did. Sounds like you were being attacked in multiple directions during the entire event. Seem like the only time you could have drawn would have been from the very beginning or at the very end.

JR

That is a very good question. I have replayed the event in my mind many times. They never verbalized any threat. They never produced any weapons. What occurred was really just the unlawful use of FORCE not DEADLY FORCE (unless you attempt to apply disparity of force or blows to the head as a reason it qualified as deadly force). As the situation actually happened, I don't think I would have been able to draw at any point except POSSIBLY when I was on the ground being kicked and stomped. HOWEVER.....If this was to happen again tomorrow I would NOT ALLOW myself to be caught by surprise, verbally challenged his approach, watch for the production of a weapon and go from there.

I'm sorry if I doesn't answer your question. But in that situation, had I drawn and shot them all down just from the approach, obviously I would have been hung from the yardarm. Perhaps merely drawing the firearm would have sent them running. Or it could have escalated it to a 3 on 1 gun-battle. If I drew and fired after, it might be construed that I was just mad I got my butt kicked. All of these things have run through my mind. My ultimate conclusion was that I would:

1) notice the threat BEFORE it was IN MY FACE
2) verbally express that I wanted no trouble, and to back away
3) if the advance of three men towards my wife and me continued, I would draw the weapon(they ain't tryin' to give me a hug)
4) if they run, good(not everybody is afraid of guns pointed at them). if they attempt to produce weapons, fire. if they just continue to approach, they are idiots and I'm going to have to make a difficult split second decision based on the totality of the situation.

Hopefully regardless of outcome a jury would side with a married couple having dinner rather than 3 street thugs looking for trouble.

Disparity of force (3 on 1), blows to the head, kicking while down, and bodyslamming all qualify as deadly force, in my opinion. As I understand your situation, I'd have no problem drawing on 3 guys making advances towards me immediately after one of them physically assaulted me. Your window of opportunity appears to have been at that specific point. Likely, drawing on them would have warded off further attack. If they advance on you once you've drawn, it's quite obvious that they've got some serious intent to harm you (and possibly your wife).

I agree that most people do not have adequate situational awareness to see an attack coming. I will also say that you can't always see it coming. This appears to have been a planned, coordinated attack. I bet this isn't these fellows' first rodeo. I also agree that calling the police immediately (and giving plate numbers, if anyone got theme) would have been an excellent idea. It seems that you agree, and as you said - you weren't thinking straight.

Welcome to the forum, there is a lot of useful information and a multitude of helpful folks here.

NcongruNt wrote: Disparity of force (3 on 1), blows to the head, kicking while down, and bodyslamming all qualify as deadly force, in my opinion. As I understand your situation, I'd have no problem drawing on 3 guys making advances towards me immediately after one of them physically assaulted me. Your window of opportunity appears to have been at that specific point. Likely, drawing on them would have warded off further attack. If they advance on you once you've drawn, it's quite obvious that they've got some serious intent to harm you (and possibly your wife).

a 3 on 1 physical assault definitely qualifies as deadly force. Even a 1 on 1 attack could be considered deadly force if you were being assaulted and kicked on the ground. Any specific blow to the head could have significant repercussions, such as brain damage. Anytime you're getting assaulted, I don't think it's necessary for you to think, "I'll wait until this seems like it may become deadly" before you draw and defend yourself. Remember, oftentimes the act of drawing stops the threat immediately, without any shots being fired.

Anyways, glad to hear you are OK (and at least you got a couple good licks in)

Read the first post - WOW - glad you survived!!

Just did a glancing read through all the other posts - look at it like this (regarding using deadly force when attacked by another - as in a fight) - all it takes is one GOOD (as in well-placed and from someone who knows HOW/WHERE to hit) blow to incapacitate someone - sure the initial blow may not kill you, but the fall from being knocked out (hitting your head on a curb, splitting it) can be fatal - it happens. "I was in fear for my life...I was in fear for my life..."

Dukesean:

You are probably right. And now that I have my CHL, it will more than likely be the way it turns out if it happens again.

I tried my best to send them home limping!

Pucker:

Thanks. Very true.



As an interesting side note:

From the first lick to the end of the fight; absolutely NONE of the blows hurt(until the adrenaline wore off of course). And I took some pretty vicious blows and a lot of them. I am assuming it was the mix of adrenaline, anger , and the human survival instinct in action.

Something to think about when considering some if not all of these things could be present in an assailant that you have shot in defense. Can't bank on one or two badly placed rounds "hurting" him to the point he stops. Just like I found out that one of my punches don't send people flipping and immediately KO them, like Chuck Norris. One shot in the shoulder or leg is NOT LIKELY to immediately drop the assailant.

Edit for clarity: The above statement is IN NO WAY advocating to ever try to shoot a leg or shoulder. Merely that Hollywood embellishes gunshot wounds like it does punches. The assailant may not even feel the bullet or the wound.

Aim center mass