Hypothetical Situation...

CHL discussions that do not fit into more specific topics

Moderators: carlson1, Charles L. Cotton

Post Reply
User avatar

Topic author
billfromtx
Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:09 pm

Hypothetical Situation...

#1

Post by billfromtx »

you and your family (wife and 2 little ones) are in A fast food joint getting a bite to eat. Not many folks in there...
All of a sudden 2 Bad guys bust in screaming and pointing shotguns around!, one from the front and one from the back. We had this big discussion at work the other night, with various scenario's. With out actually being there it would be hard to call, I think since I was surpised out gunned, I would leave mine concealed and hope for the best, unless I had no choice!
What would you do....

1. stay concealed and hope they didn't decide to kill all the witnesses...
2. Draw and try to take them out before they could shoot you or your family...
3. Run for the car screamimg like a women shooting backwards over you head! ;-)
To err is human.
To forgive is divine.
Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

tboesche
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 582
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:03 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#2

Post by tboesche »

I think I would try to find concealment, if possible, draw and be ready. If the opportunity shows it self to take them out, then, I would fire
"Water's, wet, The sky is blue. And old Satan Claws, He's out there, and he's just getting stronger." Joe Halenbeck
"So what do we do about it?" Jimmie Dix
"Be prepared, Junior, That's my motto, Be Prepared". Joe Halenbeck
User avatar

Topic author
billfromtx
Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 167
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2007 1:09 pm

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#3

Post by billfromtx »

tboesche wrote:I think I would try to find concealment, if possible, draw and be ready. If the opportunity shows it self to take them out, then, I would fire
Thats what I said originally. The hard part of the puzzle is having wife and kids there...A LEO friend of mine said it would be best to leave my xd in the holster, concealed, and comply unless they started shooting people. My response was what if they started shooting my family!...He did say it was a tough scenario and with them having the drop on everyone inside, pulling my pistol might escsalate to a more dangerous level than the Bad guys had intended...Or maybe not.
Having the family present makes the desicion more difficult.
To err is human.
To forgive is divine.
Neither of which is Marine Corps policy.

Wildscar
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 1402
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 4:04 pm
Location: Dallas Area

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#4

Post by Wildscar »

billfromtx wrote: My response was what if they started shooting my family!...

I guarantee if this happens that my personal safety would go out the door and I would exterminate with extreme prejudice. If they shoot me they had better make it a good one because they won’t get a second chance.
Wildscar
"Far Better it is to dare mighty things than to take rank with those poor, timid spirits who know neither victory nor defeat." Theodore Roosevelt 1899
Beretta 92FS
Holster Review Resource
Project One Million:Texas - Click here and Join NRA Today!
Image

Liko81
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:37 pm

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#5

Post by Liko81 »

billfromtx wrote:He did say it was a tough scenario and with them having the drop on everyone inside, pulling my pistol might escsalate to a more dangerous level than the Bad guys had intended...Or maybe not.
Making the decision to draw and fire always involves more variables than your average vector calculus problem. I was initially going to disagree with the fact that pulling your weapon might escalate it, on the grounds that the threat of deadly force is all you need, but that's only true in terms of justification; the USE of deadly force is indeed far worse than its threat.

There are a lot of people who'd say "since you can't be sure of their intentions, you have to assume the worst and react as if you knew it was going to happen". That may be true of a mugger directed at you, but a robber looking for money out of the store's till could probably care less about you; it takes too long to shake everyone down and as long as you sit down and shut up they'll get their money and leave. It doesn't mean he's 100% guaranteed not to start shooting people, but it's not what he's after.

I would therefore try to ready my weapon, but I would not fire it unless harm to me or my family were imminent. Some might extend this to include anyone in the immediate vicinity, and I could understand, but with a lawyer attached to every bullet it doesn't take much to think of family first and society second. Others might fire as soon as they could get a clean shot, but I can't agree with this. I hate to say it, but the Brady bunch do have a point when they say that the penalty under the law for armed robbery isn't death; why should a single CHL be judge, jury and hangman unless necessary to preserve innocent life?

For me it's not about being justified; it's about having no other choice. The very instant you "know" you and/or your loved ones are not going to get out unharmed, or if a BG demands you disarm (which brings with it the promise of harm), you do whatever you can to give yourself a chance to survive. If there is any other way to avoid harm - escape, compliance, even nonviolent opposition (people simply saying "no" to a robber has worked, but talk about one hell of a dice roll against two guys with guns) - take that road and save the bullet.

BShook
Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 79
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:19 pm
Location: Plano, TX, USA
Contact:

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#6

Post by BShook »

I would make every attempt to get my family out of harm's way without firing - if the situation escalated to the point where I felt that there would be shooting, I will be the first to pull the trigger.

If I am second, that's one dead that didn't need to be.

Tough situation, for sure...
User avatar

seamusTX
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 13551
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:04 pm
Location: Galveston

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#7

Post by seamusTX »

Liko81 wrote:I hate to say it, but the Brady bunch do have a point when they say that the penalty under the law for armed robbery isn't death; why should a single CHL be judge, jury and hangman unless necessary to preserve innocent life?
Um, the penalty for murder isn't death. Capital murder requires aggravating circumstances such as killing a young child, peace officer, or multiple victims.

The penalty for rape isn't death, either.

Robbers increasingly kill all the witnesses, or rob everyone present because businesses have cash control that limits robbers to $50. Some of them seem to kill everyone present just to show how "bad" they are.

- Jim
User avatar

M9FAN
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 538
Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:17 pm
Location: Pearland, TX

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#8

Post by M9FAN »

billfromtx wrote:
tboesche wrote:I think I would try to find concealment, if possible, draw and be ready. If the opportunity shows it self to take them out, then, I would fire
Thats what I said originally. The hard part of the puzzle is having wife and kids there...A LEO friend of mine said it would be best to leave my xd in the holster, concealed, and comply unless they started shooting people. My response was what if they started shooting my family!...He did say it was a tough scenario and with them having the drop on everyone inside, pulling my pistol might escsalate to a more dangerous level than the Bad guys had intended...Or maybe not.
Having the family present makes the desicion more difficult.
Although option 3., "Run for the car screaming like a woman shooting backwards over you head!", sounds tempting (from a comical standpoint), I agree with the above statements.
"Upon the conduct of each depends the fate of all." - Alexander the Great
User avatar

ELB
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 8128
Joined: Tue May 22, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Seguin

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#9

Post by ELB »

Liko81 wrote:I hate to say it, but the Brady bunch do have a point when they say that the penalty under the law for armed robbery isn't death; why should a single CHL be judge, jury and hangman unless necessary to preserve innocent life?
No the Brady bunch doesn't have a point. When you are faced with armed robbery, you are faced with imminent threat of death or injury, otherwise you wouldn't cough up your wallet, would you?

A judge and jury have the luxury of hindsight when reviewing an armed robbery -- they know what the outcome was. If no one was shot or injured, it is still "just" an armed robbery. If the police find your body, and your wife's body, and your childrens' bodies bled out in the back room, like those ladies in Chicago, well then it's not just an armed robbery any more, is it? And you don't have the luxury of hindsight that the judge, jury, and Brady bunch do. You are dead.

The penalty for armed robbery is not death because at the point of a trial, we know if anyone was killed or injured or not. If someone died, then the trial is about murder.

You can't reliably predict what the final outcome of an armed robbery is, just like you can't predict what the outcome of a home invasion is. They may only want your money, or they may only want your money and you dead on the floor. If you are willing to place the entire decision about whether you and your family will live or not in the hands of others, by all means, go ahead. Me, I at least want a vote in the final outcome.

You are not guaranteed to only be presented with situations where you absolutely know you will be killed or seriously injured if you don't use deadly force yourself. You will have to make a decision based on incomplete, confusing information, and do so quickly. And even if somehow convinced that you should use deadly force, you are certainly not guaranteed that you can do so without harm to yourself or your family, or even that you have a reasonable chance for success. You may very well be facing multiple assailants looking down their gun barrels at you. You may elect to "go for it" and fail entirely. But the odds are you will be better off if you fight back than if you don't, and the harder you fight back, the better odds you will have.

Your tactical decisions will be governed by the actual situation, but morally and legally, a couple guys waving shotguns at you and yelling for your money are definitely candidates to be shot early and often.

The Brady argument is immoral - it misdirects attention away from the evil of the perpetrator and tries to hang it on the citizen willing to defend himself.

elb
USAF 1982-2005
____________

Liko81
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:37 pm

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#10

Post by Liko81 »

ELB wrote:
Liko81 wrote:I hate to say it, but the Brady bunch do have a point when they say that the penalty under the law for armed robbery isn't death; why should a single CHL be judge, jury and hangman unless necessary to preserve innocent life?
No the Brady bunch doesn't have a point. When you are faced with armed robbery, you are faced with imminent threat of death or injury, otherwise you wouldn't cough up your wallet, would you? -- SNIP
Good points. I still don't think that drawing and firing at "This is a robbery" is a smart move. I'll say it again: assess the situation, and the second you "know" (there doesn't have to be proof; trust your instincts) that a robber is not going to be satisfied with taking the clerk's money and running, you draw and fire as if your life depended on it, because it likely does. However, the best shot is the one you don't have to take. Any way you slice it it is a judgement call. You're using deadly force to prevent a robbery, so you're totally justified AS LONG AS your shots don't hit anyone else. You therefore MUST make a clean shot. And you have to consider that more than one BG means more than one pair of eyes; you better be able to draw, point and fire faster than the backup guy can turn and fire.
User avatar

anygunanywhere
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 7877
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:16 am
Location: Richmond, Texas

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#11

Post by anygunanywhere »

We delve into the what if scenarios quite a bit though not as much as other boards.

To tell you the truth, eating in fast food joints is one of the last things I ever want to do. Probably 95% of the time if fast food is my option I hit the drive through and park somewhere and gorge. I keep my doors locked and the engine running, usually parking away from the rest. If anyone wants to dance they can do so with my 7.3 liter Superduty.

If I had kids, I would think more about this. Times have changed since we raised ours.

Since I am on the road a lot in not-so-nice areas this is the option I think is safest. I really do no want to get in a shootout with fast food bandits.

Anygunanywhere
"When democracy turns to tyranny, the armed citizen still gets to vote." Mike Vanderboegh

"The Smallest Minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." – Ayn Rand
User avatar

Photoman
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 557
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:21 pm

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#12

Post by Photoman »

If you do decide to go all "Dirty Harry," put as much distance between you and your family as you can.

KD5NRH
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 1
Posts: 3119
Joined: Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:25 am
Location: Stephenville TX

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#13

Post by KD5NRH »

billfromtx wrote:you and your family (wife and 2 little ones) are in A fast food joint getting a bite to eat. Not many folks in there...
All of a sudden 2 Bad guys bust in screaming and pointing shotguns around!,
I cast magic missile, directing half at each of them.

I don't have any kids, so if two of them are following me around, that dream has started heading down the toilet already.

:razz:
User avatar

mgood
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:07 am
Location: Snyder, Texas
Contact:

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#14

Post by mgood »

I think you'd be justified in shooting. Maybe not absolutely legally if they're just there for the money from the register, but I think a Texas jury could be convinced that a reasonable person was in fear of losing their life.

However, being justified (more or less) does not mean it's a good tactical decision.
Priority one is to keep your family and yourself from being killed or seriously injured.
Priority two is to keep anyone else from being killed or seriously injured. (Legally, that includes keeping the bad guys from being injured, if possible. But I doubt that many here have as much concern for the bad guys as they do for innocent bystanders.)
To heck with the fast food joint's money. They can have that. Not my problem. (I don't want to see the bad guys profit from this, nor do I like to see someone wrongfully deprived of money they earned. But it's nowhere near worth risking my life or anyone else's over.)

If I had a clean shot, was extremely confident that I could take them both out without increasing the risk to the people in the resturaunt, I'd probably take it. That's not a suggestion of what anyone else should do.
And the odds of having that opportunity are slim.
So sit back and be a good witness, unless the bad guys make some really stupid tactical mistakes and give me the chance, in which case I might, MIGHT, shoot them.

If they start shooting up the place like the guy at Luby's, then all bets are off. It's open combat and I'm doing my best to put them down.
User avatar

mgood
Senior Member
Posts in topic: 2
Posts: 964
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:07 am
Location: Snyder, Texas
Contact:

Re: Hypothetical Situation...

#15

Post by mgood »

Photoman wrote:If you do decide to go all "Dirty Harry," put as much distance between you and your family as you can.
Good point. When they return your fire, you don't want them hitting your family by mistake.
You'll blame yourself for their deaths for the rest of your life.
Post Reply

Return to “General Texas CHL Discussion”