Debate at a party

[Lumberjack98]

Ughhh!!!!!!

[G.A. Heath]

- I will Aggressively defend my self and those I care about.
- The best defense is a good and viable offense.
- If God doesn't want them to die the gun will misfire, miss the target, ect.
- I am certain all the people killed in their own homes are comforted by this statement.
- Good plan, I like being shot/stabbed/attacked from behind while running away.
- A person who buys a gun for self defense has a mindset that someone MAY try to kill them, and they are prepared.
- Swords stop bullets so well that we are over run with Ninjas, and a bullet in the right place will stop an attacker from firing a bullet.
- Carrying a Concealed handgun has been proven to give criminals more bullets...
- The roots of crime lie in Socio-Economic reasons. More jobs, more education, more morals/ethics, more religion, and more reasons to fear their victims will stop crime.

[seamusTX]

- If somebody DOES break into your house, you should not confront them. You should call the police, try to get out of the house, run away, but don't use a gun on them.

That works real well when a member of your family is in a wheelchair.

- Jim

[KD5NRH]

- A gun is NOT a self defense tool. It is a tool of aggression. When you use a gun, you are taking an aggressive stance.

Well, I usually take an aggressive stance to use a gun. I suppose, specifically, it is a counteroffensive tool.

- A self defense tool is something like body armor, armored cars, etc.

No, those are protective equipment. To expand on the idea of a gun being a counteroffensive tool, a defensive tool would be something along the lines of a shield or parrying dagger.

- God is the only one who should be the ultimate authority on death.

Fine. He can certainly pull somebody through from a bullet wound if He wants. I'd just be submitting them for review.

- It is not right to use a gun if somebody breaks into your house, because you have no idea if they have the intention of killing you.

I've got a pretty good idea that they have the intention of doing me harm if they break in while I'm there, thank you.

- If somebody DOES break into your house, you should not confront them. You should call the police, try to get out of the house, run away, but don't use a gun on them.

Run where? What's going to stop them from using my guns on me? I can't run 3750fps, and it'll be a good minute or more before I can get to hard cover. Especially if I'm having to carry my asthmatic wife.

- A person who would buy a gun for self defense has a mindset that they WILL use the gun to kill somebody, and that's not right.

No more than I have the mindset that I WILL get into a wreck when I put on my seatbelt, or I WILL set the house on fire when I check the fire extinguishers.

- A sword is a self defense tool, as you can use a sword to stop another person with a sword.

No, you can use the sword to deflect the other person's sword. To keep them from doing it again, you're going to have to go back to the counteroffensive measures.

You can't use a gun to stop another gun, as a bullet isn't going to stop another bullet. (Not making this up)

Happens fairly often, actually. Fused bullets are quite popular battlefield souvenirs.

- Carrying a concealed handgun only gives criminals more guns, as you can get the gun stolen out of your car, etc.

Stealing it out of my car while I'm carrying it is going to be pretty tough.

- The crime rates for Texas are incorrect, as the Houston Police Department was recently caught fudging their homicide numbers, and the homicide rate in Houston has actually been going up even before Katrina.

I'd insist on him demonstrating at least marginal relevance before I'd bother to try to rebut that, though a start would be comparing the homicide rate to the justifiable/accidental homicide rate, and breaking it down by methods (gun, vehicle, etc.) and contributing factors. (gang fights, etc.) Besides, it could just be natural selection

[nuparadigm]

Maybe you could offer to drop this guy off, alone, at Greenspoint Mall. He may begin to change his own mind.

[LarryH]

Houston's Channel 11 investigative reporters have been doing a multi-part "expose" on the under-reporting of homicides by HPD, so he (assuming integrity on the part of the reporters) does have some evidence for that.

Escape, if possible, is preferable to confrontation, for me. ElGato pointed out, in the CHL class, that if you get involved in an armed confrontation, you should expect to get shot, cut or hit. Having said that, be smart about your individual situation. If safe escape is not feasible, confrontation is the only real option left (IMHO).

The rest of the "debator's" points are fuzzy, feel-morally-superior, liberal hogwash (again, IMHO).

[flintknapper]

At this point I would be wishing I had those minutes of my life back.

Total waste of your time IMO.

[frankie_the_yankee]

- A gun is NOT a self defense tool. It is a tool of aggression. When you use a gun, you are taking an aggressive stance.

Just because he asserts this does not make it so.

This is an old debaters trick. You define the terms of the debate in such a way as to rule out the position of the other side right from the start.

If you accept his premise that a gun is a tool of aggression, then most of the rest of what he asserts more or less follows from that.

I would not have accepted it, because it is not valid, meaning that his definition of defense is simply made up and is not what the rest of the English-speaking world means when using those words.

As someone pointed out, his definition of defensive tools is more accurately described as "protective equipment".

We have a Department of Defense in this country that employs all sorts of tools, including many types of guns, in defense of the nation.

I would have been tempted to ask him if he favored research, development, and deployment of an SDI system to intercept incoming ballistic missiles. It would fit his philosophy, but most leftists are against it. It would have been fun to see him squirm over it.

But more to the point, defensive actions are defined at law, so it doesn't matter what nutball contrived definition he has dreamed up. The law recognizes the use of guns in lawful self defense. End of story.

- If somebody DOES break into your house, you should not confront them. You should call the police, try to get out of the house, run away, but don't use a gun on them.

Did this person believe it was OK for the police to have guns? If so, would ask them to explain why it is OK for someone being assaulted in their own home to call them and wait 5 or 10 or 20 minutes for them to arrive, with their guns, while it is NOT OK for you, the victim, to produce a gun of your own and act immediately in defense of yourself and your home.

Furthermore, why should I listen to what he says I "should" do? What does he know about such things? Is he familiar with what happened to that family in CT a couple of months ago. (The one where two home invaders killed 3 members of the family and set the house on fire? And this was after they took the wife to the bank, where she did manage to get someone to alert the police, to force her to withdraw money.) What kind of tactical advice did he have for those people? Might not they have been better off if they had had a gun handy and knew how to use it?

I would ask him if he was confronted in his home by two violent criminals does he think he would be better off if he had a gun at that moment or if he did not. Of course you know he would say that he would be better off without a gun, but it would have been fun to watch him babble like a fool as he made this "point".

- God is the only one who should be the ultimate authority on death.

Does this guy oppose the 1st amendment too? He can have any religious belief he wants, but he can't expect me to agree with it. I would have been tempted to reply that his very existence was proof (to me) that God created fools.

[HighVelocity]

Here is my canned response to this arguement and it always works:

When your mother or wife is home alone and 2 or more men break into the house, they probably don't plan to kill her but I doubt they'd let her call the police until they were through with her and had left.

That shuts them up everytime.

[shootthesheet]

Don't argue with idealists. They do not use facts to come to logical conclusions. They are usually the most ignorant of our society as far as both experience and current events. They do not seek facts as proven by the comments he made. They are usually more liberal in their political affiliation and thus little more than followers and not free thinkers. They are victims of their own complacency. They claim their pacifists but are really just fooling themselves to appear more "evolved".

That said, I have great respect for a true Pacifists that knows the danger and realities of life but chooses to take the risk. I do not believe pacifism is required to be a Christian but, in reality, is necessary for some. I don't know about other religions so I can't comment.

[KD5NRH]

- A gun is NOT a self defense tool. It is a tool of aggression. When you use a gun, you are taking an aggressive stance.

Well, I usually take an aggressive stance to use a gun. I suppose, specifically, it is a counteroffensive tool.

I missed a perfectly good quote for this one, too:

"This is the law: The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental." -- John Steinbeck

[Wildscar]

- A gun is NOT a self defense tool. It is a tool of aggression. When you use a gun, you are taking an aggressive stance.
True. I will take an aggressive stance to someone tying to inflict bodily harm on my self or those I love.

- A self defense tool is something like body armor, armored cars, etc.
Then why do our offices and military use them for self defense.

- God is the only one who should be the ultimate authority on death.
I will eave this god question alone. I'm not going to start a holy war with my answer.


- It is not right to use a gun if somebody breaks into your house, because you have no idea if they have the intention of killing you.
Yeah he/she/it might want to rape and pillage first.

- If somebody DOES break into your house, you should not confront them. You should call the police, try to get out of the house, run away, but don't use a gun on them.
I had to work hard to get all my stuff. I not going to give it away that easily.

- A person who would buy a gun for self defense has a mindset that they WILL use the gun to kill somebody, and that's not right.
True. I have made that mind set cause that criminal that you may or may not run into has already made that choice also.

- A sword is a self defense tool, as you can use a sword to stop another person with a sword. You can't use a gun to stop another gun, as a bullet isn't going to stop another bullet. (Not making this up)
Sorry but I'm not going to bring a knife to a gun fight. Also I have seen reports of bullets stop one another by hitting in midair. So that statement is all wrong. Also I have never seen a sword stop a bullet.

- Carrying a concealed handgun only gives criminals more guns, as you can get the gun stolen out of your car, etc.
So don't leave it in the car. And if you do have to lock it up. Duh.

- The crime rates for Texas are incorrect, as the Houston Police Department was recently caught fudging their homicide numbers, and the homicide rate in Houston has actually been going up even before Katrina.
OK and this is an argument to NOT carry a gun?!?

Next time you see this individual. Tell them that to respect their wishes you will not use your firearm to help protect them if they are being raped and beaten brutally murdered.

[Dragonfighter]

Two Points:

The son of God commanded his disciples to carry weapons even to the point of selling protective clothing (cloaks) if necessary to get one.
-Luke 22:36

God told us not to argue with fools.
-Proverbs 14:17, 23:9, et al

In fact Proverbs has a lot to say about fools many of which are applicable to your idiot "friend".

Kyle