TexasCHLforum.com

This may seem like a stupid question for some of y'all. Sorry bout that. Oh well though. It happens alot. Just ask any of my ex-wives....who all happen to live in Texas.

So, my understanding back when I first went through my CHL training several years ago was that if we had been issued a CHL then if someone from law enforcement asked for our ID we were required to give it along with our CHL. I don't just mean if we get pulled over. I also mean that if we are out just walking down the sidewalk and an officer steps up and demands to see our ID. We would have to give it.

Unlike unarmed citizens who have to be detained in order to force them to comply with an ID request under those circumstances.

I could be wrong about all that. If I am I'm good with that. Just let me know please.

However, if I'm right about that, are those laws still the same now that firearms laws have changed so much?

Rick

I believe this is the relevant statute;

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... tm#411.205

I think this is a very gray area of the law. As posted, the law requires you to display both your ID and LTC if you are asked to by a peace officer or magistrate. There are two problems with this. The first is that the penalty for not doing so has been repealed, which makes it a useless law.

The bigger problem is that it does not give the police or magistrate any additional authority to demand the ID. That makes it questionable if the officer asks for the ID when you are not required to present it, such as you just walking down the street when a cop stops you and asks for ID for no reason. Since he has no authority to demand an ID, can you get in trouble for not providing it? This is even more confusing if there is no penalty to the law.

I think the best way to consider this is to try to guess the legislature's intent. It was not to provide police with a means to make you identify yourself, but to make sure the officer knew you were carrying a weapon if he did stop you for some legal reason. This is why it says to present the LTC with the ID, not the other way around. It is also why it only requires you to show it if you are carrying a handgun.

And again, with no penalty, it is not anything to worry about now.

srothstein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:21 pm I think this is a very gray area of the law. As posted, the law requires you to display both your ID and LTC if you are asked to by a peace officer or magistrate. There are two problems with this. The first is that the penalty for not doing so has been repealed, which makes it a useless law.

The bigger problem is that it does not give the police or magistrate any additional authority to demand the ID. That makes it questionable if the officer asks for the ID when you are not required to present it, such as you just walking down the street when a cop stops you and asks for ID for no reason. Since he has no authority to demand an ID, can you get in trouble for not providing it? This is even more confusing if there is no penalty to the law.

I think the best way to consider this is to try to guess the legislature's intent. It was not to provide police with a means to make you identify yourself, but to make sure the officer knew you were carrying a weapon if he did stop you for some legal reason. This is why it says to present the LTC with the ID, not the other way around. It is also why it only requires you to show it if you are carrying a handgun.

And again, with no penalty, it is not anything to worry about now.

Can you point to the relevant section where the penalty was repealed.

I thought it was only if part of an investigation. A traffic stop would meet that requirement, but not just as a general request.

I was at a private event, few people knew about. I was not invited. I was standing at the sidewalk on public property watching the people get dropped off, walking past the sidewalk which had a red carpet, then into the event. I was being paparazzi taking photographs of everyone, figuring I would figure out later who they were.

An officer I think a high ranking one, at least a Sargent, came up and asked for my name, he then asked to see my drivers license.

I cheerfully complied he thanked me and handed them back. That was it. I got some great photos of some basketball superstars.

A lawyer I knew told me when he was starting out, he did speeding tickets. He said they came in two flavors, speeding ticket and speeding ticket with resisting arrest. He said many times with the second kind his interview was in the hospital.

He said it is very important with police officers to pass the attitude test.

I have always remembered that.

From The Texas Law State Library.
https://guides.sll.texas.gov/protest-rights/police

Do I need to show a police officer my ID?

Texas law only requires that you show your ID to a police officer under certain circumstances. These circumstances include: after you've been arrested, when you are driving, and when you are a License to Carry holder carrying a handgun.

Texas Law

Section 38.02 of the Texas Penal Code

Creates an offense for failing to identify yourself to a police officer after you have been arrested. Creates an offense for providing false identity information after you have been arrested or detained.

Section 521.025 of the Texas Transportation Code

Requires that drivers provide their drivers license upon request from a police officer while operating a motor vehicle.

Section 411.205 of the Texas Government Code

This statute requires those with a license to carry a handgun (LTC) to display their LTC and driver's license or identification certificate to a peace officer upon request. Those with a "protective order designation" must also display a copy of the order.
(This is ambiguous,. It makes it sound like it's separate from 38.02 or 521.025 but an office must first have a reason to demand ID.
Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display: - Jay)

Understanding the Law

Failure to Identify (Versus Texas)
https://versustexas.com/fort-worth-misd ... -identify/

This private attorney's website provides a detailed discussion of Texas's "failure to identify" law.

Okay, but is asking the same as demanding?

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:24 pm

srothstein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:21 pm I think this is a very gray area of the law. As posted, the law requires you to display both your ID and LTC if you are asked to by a peace officer or magistrate. There are two problems with this. The first is that the penalty for not doing so has been repealed, which makes it a useless law....

Can you point to the relevant section where the penalty was repealed.

Steve will know more accurately, but I believe it was in 2009, the 81st Regular Legislature. The bill that was enrolled, signed, and made effective as of September 1, 2009, was HB 2730: https://capitol.texas.gov/Search/DocVie ... &DocType=B (you'll need to use your browser to search for the second instance of "fails to display a license" because the text is too long for the TLO's search-term highlight).

Prior to this, GC 411.187 had as item (2) that a license to carry a handgun "may be suspended under this section if the license holder"..."fails to display a license as required by Section 411.205."

HB 2730 struck that line completely, and now GC 411.187 makes no mention of any penalty for failure to display: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... tm#411.187.

Rafe wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:57 am

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:24 pm

srothstein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:21 pm I think this is a very gray area of the law. As posted, the law requires you to display both your ID and LTC if you are asked to by a peace officer or magistrate. There are two problems with this. The first is that the penalty for not doing so has been repealed, which makes it a useless law....

Can you point to the relevant section where the penalty was repealed.

Steve will know more accurately, but I believe it was in 2009, the 81st Regular Legislature. The bill that was enrolled, signed, and made effective as of September 1, 2009, was HB 2730: https://capitol.texas.gov/Search/DocVie ... &DocType=B (you'll need to use your browser to search for the second instance of "fails to display a license" because the text is too long for the TLO's search-term highlight).

Prior to this, GC 411.187 had as item (2) that a license to carry a handgun "may be suspended under this section if the license holder"..."fails to display a license as required by Section 411.205."

HB 2730 struck that line completely, and now GC 411.187 makes no mention of any penalty for failure to display: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... tm#411.187.

Yeah, I guess the other way of looking at it is. Show me the penalty in the existing law. There isn't one.

philip964 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 10:53 pm I was at a private event, few people knew about. I was not invited. I was standing at the sidewalk on public property watching the people get dropped off, walking past the sidewalk which had a red carpet, then into the event. I was being paparazzi taking photographs of everyone, figuring I would figure out later who they were.

An officer I think a high ranking one, at least a Sargent, came up and asked for my name, he then asked to see my drivers license.

I cheerfully complied he thanked me and handed them back. That was it. I got some great photos of some basketball superstars.

A lawyer I knew told me when he was starting out, he did speeding tickets. He said they came in two flavors, speeding ticket and speeding ticket with resisting arrest. He said many times with the second kind his interview was in the hospital.

He said it is very important with police officers to pass the attitude test.

I have always remembered that.

What, legally, could have happened had you refused to provide ID? I understand that if your purpose is to get photos of famous people while on public property, you show the ID and take your pictures, so the cop doesn't bother you. But you were under no legal obligation to do so.

Rafe wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 8:57 am

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:24 pm

srothstein wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 8:21 pm I think this is a very gray area of the law. As posted, the law requires you to display both your ID and LTC if you are asked to by a peace officer or magistrate. There are two problems with this. The first is that the penalty for not doing so has been repealed, which makes it a useless law....

Can you point to the relevant section where the penalty was repealed.

Steve will know more accurately, but I believe it was in 2009, the 81st Regular Legislature. The bill that was enrolled, signed, and made effective as of September 1, 2009, was HB 2730: https://capitol.texas.gov/Search/DocVie ... &DocType=B (you'll need to use your browser to search for the second instance of "fails to display a license" because the text is too long for the TLO's search-term highlight).

Prior to this, GC 411.187 had as item (2) that a license to carry a handgun "may be suspended under this section if the license holder"..."fails to display a license as required by Section 411.205."

HB 2730 struck that line completely, and now GC 411.187 makes no mention of any penalty for failure to display: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs ... tm#411.187.

Good find! I had trouble tracking that down... Thanks.

Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY [DISPLAYING]
LICENSE[; PENALTY]. [(a)] If a license holder is carrying a
handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or
a peace officer demands that the license holder display
identification, the license holder shall display both the license
holder's driver's license or identification certificate issued by
the department and the license holder's handgun license. ̶[̶A̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶
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̶ ̶ ̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶v̶i̶d̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶ ̶S̶e̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶4̶1̶1̶.̶1̶8̶7̶.̶
̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶[̶(̶b̶)̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶ ̶A̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶ ̶c̶o̶m̶m̶i̶t̶s̶ ̶a̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶ ̶f̶a̶i̶l̶s̶ ̶o̶r̶
̶ ̶ ̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶u̶s̶e̶s̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶d̶i̶s̶p̶l̶a̶y̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶l̶i̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶i̶f̶i̶c̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶a̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶q̶u̶i̶r̶e̶d̶ ̶b̶y̶
̶ ̶ ̶ ̶S̶u̶b̶s̶e̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶(̶a̶)̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶p̶r̶e̶v̶i̶o̶u̶s̶l̶y̶ ̶h̶a̶v̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶h̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶'̶s̶ ̶l̶i̶c̶e̶n̶s̶e̶
̶ ̶ ̶ ̶s̶u̶s̶p̶e̶n̶d̶e̶d̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶ ̶v̶i̶o̶l̶a̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶s̶u̶b̶s̶e̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶.̶ ̶A̶n̶ ̶o̶f̶f̶e̶n̶s̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶d̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶
̶ ̶ ̶ ̶s̶u̶b̶s̶e̶c̶t̶i̶o̶n̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶ ̶C̶l̶a̶s̶s̶ ̶B̶ ̶m̶i̶s̶d̶e̶m̶e̶a̶n̶o̶r̶.̶]̶

C-dub wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:33 am Okay, but is asking the same as demanding?

Yes. If he asks for your license, no matter how polite, in law it is a demand.

As I understand. IANAL, and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

jmorris wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 4:11 pm

C-dub wrote: ↑Thu May 11, 2023 6:33 am Okay, but is asking the same as demanding?

Yes. If he asks for your license, no matter how polite, in law it is a demand.

As I understand. IANAL, and I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Whether a polite question or a demand, you are under absolutely no legal obligation to provide it. In fact, as a matter of principle, if it were phrased as a demand, I would refuse.

jmorris wrote: ↑Wed May 10, 2023 10:58 pm From The Texas Law State Library.
https://guides.sll.texas.gov/protest-rights/police

Do I need to show a police officer my ID?

Texas law only requires that you show your ID to a police officer under certain circumstances. These circumstances include: after you've been arrested, when you are driving, and when you are a License to Carry holder carrying a handgun.

Texas Law

Section 38.02 of the Texas Penal Code

Creates an offense for failing to identify yourself to a police officer after you have been arrested. Creates an offense for providing false identity information after you have been arrested or detained.

Section 521.025 of the Texas Transportation Code

Requires that drivers provide their drivers license upon request from a police officer while operating a motor vehicle.

Section 411.205 of the Texas Government Code

This statute requires those with a license to carry a handgun (LTC) to display their LTC and driver's license or identification certificate to a peace officer upon request. Those with a "protective order designation" must also display a copy of the order.
(This is ambiguous,. It makes it sound like it's separate from 38.02 or 521.025 but an office must first have a reason to demand ID.
Sec. 411.205. REQUIREMENT TO DISPLAY LICENSE. If a license holder is carrying a handgun on or about the license holder's person when a magistrate or a peace officer demands that the license holder display identification, the license holder shall display: - Jay)

This is a good statement of the law as I understand it. And I agree with your comment about whether or not the officer has to justify the demand for ID. But with the penalty removed, all they can do is charge for failure to ID, which as explained below doesn't mean what most people (including cops) think it means.

They did miss the giant loophole in TTC 521.025 though. You do not need to show the officer your driver's license IF you show it to the judge in court. This is a defense to prosecution only though. There is a bigger problem with not showing the DL on a traffic stop though. If you cannot satisfy the officer as to your identity, he cannot issue you a ticket. He will have to take you immediately to jail where they will be forced to hold you until they are satisfied as to who you are.

There is a very interesting case out of Nevada, the Hiibel case, that went all the way to SCOTUS. They basically rules that the stat law is the deciding factor and Nevada did require it in that case. Texas does not in most cases.

Understanding the Law

Failure to Identify (Versus Texas)
https://versustexas.com/fort-worth-misd ... -identify/

This private attorney's website provides a detailed discussion of Texas's "failure to identify" law.

While this is a very good basic discussion of failure to ID, I would probably have added one point to it. Make sure you know when you are arrested, and it may not be when you think. In 2004, as part of the dicta in the Texas v. Kurtz case, the Court of Criminal Appeals ruled that a traffic stop is an arrest. The whole basis of their decision is that a traffic stop is an arrest and the officer was outside his jurisdiction and thus without the authority to arrest in that case. They specifically rejected the argument that a traffic stop is an investigatory detention. Based on this logic, not showing a driver's license on a traffic stop could subject you to PC38.02 failure to ID charges. The defense in TTC521.025 would not apply then.