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Just thought I would post this video, I know, it's the Police. But, what if you were caught up in this? Who knows where all the shooters are? Maybe you run across multiple shooters while trying to escape.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVxxhxcd2sc&t=80s

Real life gun fight on video. Note the number of misses. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPGXrMVLJVM

We must each decide for ourselves which risks we are willing to manage and which benefits matter most to us.

Ref: Rangemaster Firearms Instructor Development Couse Student Manual, Revised Dec 2020, Tom Givens.
As of December 2020, 68 of Tom's students, that he knows of, have been involved in defensive encounters. 65 wins, 0 loses, 3 forfeits. The 3 forfeits were not carrying their guns and died in the encounter. Of these 65 wins, none reloaded during the fight although one shot to slide-lock.

John Correia (Active Self Protection) has viewed over 30,000 real life incidents of violence. He has not seen a civilian reload that affected the outcome of the fight.

This seems to indicate that we will win or lose the fight with the ammunition in our gun when the fight starts.

Correia further says that he is seeing multiple attackers with increasing frequency.

John Daub, https://blog.hsoi.com/2013/07/11/minimu ... ve-pistol/, 7/11/2013.

... Paul Ford (former Austin Police SWAT member). Paul pointed out that in a gunfight you will do about 70% of your worst day at the range. Think about that: take your worst day (under the ideal circumstances of the range), and now make it a lot worse, and that’s how you’ll do.

Let's take a simplified, worst case scenario.

We know that handguns suck at stopping people. Let's say you can consistently hit the high, center chest of the photo-realistic target two out of three times at 5 yards in three seconds from concealment, on your best day on the range. Let's say it's 1 out of three on your worst day at the range. Using Paul Ford's 70%, this indicates you may likely miss all of your shots in your gunfight.

Let's say that through competent training and diligent practice, you manage to consistently get 4 high-center chest hits on your worst day. Using Paul Ford's 70%, that comes out to roughly 3 hits and one miss in your hypothetical gunfight. Let's say that those three hits stop your attacker. But wait, dude has three buddies. That's 4 shots to stop dude, and 12 to stop his buddies.

How many attackers, at your current skill level, can you reasonably expect to handle with the ammunition in your gun.

I've been tested and timed by Karl Rehn, John Daub, Lee Weems, John Corriea, and Tom Givens. I know my worst and best. I compete in USPSA matches with my EDC gear. I have a decent measure of how many attackers I can handle with the 17+1 in my M&P. My sons carry a minimum of 15+1.

I can't, and won't attempt to, tell you how much ammunition is enough for you. I will say that through training, testing, and competing you can get an idea of your capabilities which will inform your decision of how much ammunition is enough for you.

This supports what I've always presumed, as well. I've never been in a gunfight, so I'm not speaking from experience, but it is clear, very clear, than most armchair combatants severely underestimate the level of stress they'll experience when they see an attacker's muzzle pointed at them and a finger starting to squeeze the trigger.

One instructor writing on the web compared it to having a bad fall. Thinking about a moment when you suddenly, unexpectedly, tripped or slipped and fell to the ground face first, slamming into the ground. Recall, as best you can, your mental and physical state during that half-second when you were on your way down. That's approximately the state you will be in when you're in a deadly force self defense situation. You stop breathing. Your eyes freeze. Your muscles stiffen. Your brain stops processing information. This is where those stories come from about LEO's emptying their magazines at a subject 3-5 yards away and missing.

This is also why it's so important to practice different draw-and-fire routines over and over, until they become second nature, until you can do them instantly and smoothly, without thinking. My CHL instructor was a retired DEA agent and ex Blackwater operator in the middle east. Every single morning, he practiced drawing and dry-firing his SIG 226 from concealment, 50 times. It was unbelievable how smooth and fast he was. He would draw and put 4 shots into you before you could blink, simply because he had done it so many times it was just an instant, reflex action.

These thoughts came to my mind when I read the above post.

I have bounced from Glock to 1911. I love the 1911 platform for decades, but the round count was always a concern in my little feeble mind. I also love my revolvers. I finally landed (at least I hope I have) on the Wilson Combat EDC X9. It is like the offspring of a Glock 19 and a Colt Commander 1911. It is the 1911 platform with 15 or 18 round magazines. I think a spare magazine is great to fix a malfunction quickly. It sure is nice to just have one pistol without carrying three magazines.

carlson1 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 1:16 pm I have bounced from Glock to 1911. I love the 1911 platform for decades, but the round count was always a concern in my little feeble mind. I also love my revolvers. I finally landed (at least I hope I have) on the Wilson Combat EDC X9. It is like the offspring of a Glock 19 and a Colt Commander 1911. It is the 1911 platform with 15 or 18 round magazines. I think a spare magazine is great to fix a malfunction quickly. It sure is nice to just have one pistol without carrying three magazines.

I carry a 17+1 M&P9 M2.0 5" that is very similar in dimensions to the 1911A1 I carried in the 1st Cavalry Division. I also carry two spare magazines because I can easily do so without sacrificing OC spray, IFAK, or flashlight. I want to be able to replace one faulty magazine and still have a fresh one with which to reload after the fight. Works for me.

Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it as they say.

Carrying my Paraordnace 1911 with one spare mag gives me 29rds on me so I think I'm covered!

Ruark wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:50 pm This supports what I've always presumed, as well. I've never been in a gunfight, so I'm not speaking from experience, but it is clear, very clear, than most armchair combatants severely underestimate the level of stress they'll experience when they see an attacker's muzzle pointed at them and a finger starting to squeeze the trigger.

Speaking from experience, we also tend to underestimate the adrenaline dump and it's affect when one takes sight on another human being and takes up the slack in the trigger. I'm talking shaky for the next 6-8 hours. Holding steady, even at point blank range becomes far more difficult than most would imagine.

I thank God every day that my attacker found something far more interesting before I broke that shot.

cbunt1 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 9:19 pmSpeaking from experience, we also tend to underestimate the adrenaline dump and it's affect when one takes sight on another human being and takes up the slack in the trigger. I'm talking shaky for the next 6-8 hours. Holding steady, even at point blank range becomes far more difficult than most would imagine.

I thank God every day that my attacker found something far more interesting before I broke that shot.

I've never been in a gun fight before but have come close a few times, most recently seeing a confrontation at a park by my house where two groups of people started shooting at each other. A couple of things that never crossed my mind when this was occurring. I wish I had less ammo and I wish I had a smaller gun.

Great discussion here. Without quality force-on-force training I don't think people are as prepared as they think they are for a gunfight.

In our training progression we first focus on gun safety & threat awareness, then fundamentals of marksmanship & tactics, and testing/maintaining your gear. Then use of a concealment holster and proper use of cover... then point shooting, retention shooting, firing on the move, etc. Reloads under time are mixed in, but not a major focus until the more advanced levels that include Force-on-Force to integrate and bring all skills together in a realistic fashion.

Pulling the trigger on a live opponent on a two-way range is often an underappreciated skill in itself.

Once fundamentals are solid, advanced training should include realistic targets, target discrimination, as well as time & physical stressors.

If anyone tells you that they can teach you all that effectively in a single weekend, they are lying.

AVOIDING FANTASY GUNFIGHT TRAINING

Paladin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:38 am
AVOIDING FANTASY GUNFIGHT TRAINING

Good article to save on the HD. He mentions always including "discrimination drills" in your practice. What are those? Target identification?

Ruark wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 12:43 pm

Paladin wrote: ↑Sun Jul 11, 2021 11:38 am
AVOIDING FANTASY GUNFIGHT TRAINING

Good article to save on the HD. He mentions always including "discrimination drills" in your practice. What are those? Target identification?

Discrimination drills test your judgement with Shoot/no-shoot targets.

The Process is to scan:
1. The whole person
2. Hands (both)
3. Waistline
4. Immediate area
5. Demeanor

The typical "See gun, shoot" is dangerous as it's gotten good guys killed.

Paul Howe favors photo realistic targets with velcro backed pictures of badges, cell phones, weapons, etc that can be changed up on every target, for each run.

The easiest way to practice target discrimination is to put on an action movie with lots of badguys. Then dryfire on the badguys. Targets appear and disappear quickly on the screen. Do that with several movies and when you get around to live fire... live fire discrimination drills will be boring. At least it was for me.

oljames3 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 10:50 am John Correia (Active Self Protection) has viewed over 30,000 real life incidents of violence. He has not seen a civilian reload that affected the outcome of the fight.

This seems to indicate that we will win or lose the fight with the ammunition in our gun when the fight starts.

Correia further says that he is seeing multiple attackers with increasing frequency.

I watch Correia's channel every day—one reason being is that my wife likes it and has learned a lot from it. I like it too, but I’m grateful that she does because she’s not really a "gun person". That said……

While I agree that it is possibly unlikely that I would need to expend all 16 rounds in my G19 in order to affect a stop, it is also possible that I might—under the stress of the situation—shoot to slide lock and find myself winchester on ammo. I hope that I’d have more control than that, but I’ve never been in a gunfight, and I won’t know for absolute certain how I’d respond until the day it happens—which I pray never comes. I almost always carry 2 spare mags with any gun I carry. I don’t carry that many because I expect to expend 46 rounds in a fight. I carry them because (1) I may wish to perform an administrative reload after the shooting stops, and (2) I acknowledge the possibility, however remote, of a magazine-related malfunction. I carry 2 spare mags even with low cap guns like my G43, and I carry 2 speedloaders or speedstrips with a revolver.

I’ve been doing this long enough that it’s an ingrained habit now, so I don’t even have to think about it when I’m getting ready to go out. And certainly, at least in the way that carrying a handgun fits into my lifestyle, carrying the extra mags does no harm.

Ruark wrote: ↑Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:50 pm This is where those stories come from about LEO's emptying their magazines at a subject 3-5 yards away and missing.

Many years ago back in California, my neighbor across the street was an undercover detective in the LA County Sheriff's narco squad. He once told me about a gunfight involving one of his colleagues who cornered a dealer behind a shower curtain in the small back bathroom of a crackhouse they were raiding. Both the detective colleague and the crack dealer expended all of their rounds inside the confines of that bathroom, and neither was hit.

It’s hard to believe that things could go that way, but it apparently does happen. I believe that Correia calls it the FIBSA Factor (fudge, I’m being shot at), and it shows up in a lot of his videos.