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I'm confused about carry in a restaurant If the sign is blue

and there is a bar area what is the law on carry Note: I do not drink

You are probably referring to the TABC "Blue" sign. This sign must be posted by any establishment that sells alcohol for off-premises consumption (liquor stores, grocery stores, convenience stores) or sells for on-premises consumption where sales are less than 51% of their business. If you read the sign closely, it says "unlicensed possession of a weapon ... ", so this sign has absolutely no applicability to LTCers who are carrying, and they can ignore it.

What you cannot ignore is the TABC "Red" sign which applies to establishments who make 51% or more of their business form alcohol sales. Weapons are prohibited - period.

If you have an LTC, you should have been schooled on the 30.06 and 30.7 signs that do apply to LTCers who are carrying.

And if you do not have an LTC, you can't be carrying at all unless you are on your private property or in your vehicle.

The Blue sign is the "Unlicensed Carry" prohibition making it a felony for an UNLICENSED person to carry in that location. In order to prohibit LICENSED carry it would have to be a 51% sign that would require the establishment to receive more than 51% of it's income from alcohol sales. Whether or not you drink is immaterial as the law only prohibits carry while intoxicated (more than .08 BAC OR consuming alcohol or any drug to the extent that it impairs your physical or mental capacity).

It gets a little tricky with restaurants that have a dedicated bar inside... My understanding is that while you may sit in the restaurant area while carrying, you may not sit at the bar itself. Chili's restaurants is a good example of this.. Many of them have a dedicated bar inside where you cannot sit and drink while carrying...

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong... This very scenario was brought up in my instructor class and so was Chili's...

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:59 am It gets a little tricky with restaurants that have a dedicated bar inside... My understanding is that while you may sit in the restaurant area while carrying, you may not sit at the bar itself. Chili's restaurants is a good example of this.. Many of them have a dedicated bar inside where you cannot sit and drink while carrying...

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong... This very scenario was brought up in my instructor class and so was Chili's...

I am not aware of anything like that in the law. Either you can carry on the premises or you can't. Pretty sure that instructor didn't know what he was talking about.

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:59 am It gets a little tricky with restaurants that have a dedicated bar inside... My understanding is that while you may sit in the restaurant area while carrying, you may not sit at the bar itself. Chili's restaurants is a good example of this.. Many of them have a dedicated bar inside where you cannot sit and drink while carrying...

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong... This very scenario was brought up in my instructor class and so was Chili's...

I don't think the law is absolutely, specifically clear on that, so it's somewhat of a gray area. Same situation as a movie/dinner theatre that has a bar with a 51% sign. As long as you're in the theatre watching a movie, you should be OK, but don't go to the bar, and absolutely don't drink any alcohol regardless of where you're sitting.

This is an example of why "concealed is concealed" is a good motto; not to circumvent the law, but to avoid complications that can arise due to different interpretations of an unclear law.

LucasMcCain wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:23 am

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:59 am It gets a little tricky with restaurants that have a dedicated bar inside... My understanding is that while you may sit in the restaurant area while carrying, you may not sit at the bar itself. Chili's restaurants is a good example of this.. Many of them have a dedicated bar inside where you cannot sit and drink while carrying...

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong... This very scenario was brought up in my instructor class and so was Chili's...

I am not aware of anything like that in the law. Either you can carry on the premises or you can't. Pretty sure that instructor didn't know what he was talking about.

I agree.. It seemed odd to me as well and it's possible that I just misunderstood him...

LucasMcCain wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:23 am

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:59 am It gets a little tricky with restaurants that have a dedicated bar inside... My understanding is that while you may sit in the restaurant area while carrying, you may not sit at the bar itself. Chili's restaurants is a good example of this.. Many of them have a dedicated bar inside where you cannot sit and drink while carrying...

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong... This very scenario was brought up in my instructor class and so was Chili's...

I am not aware of anything like that in the law. Either you can carry on the premises or you can't. Pretty sure that instructor didn't know what he was talking about.

I just looked up half-a-dozen Chili's Bar and Grills in Seguin, New Braunfels, Austin, and San Marcos on the TABC website. None had a red 51% sign required.

ELB wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:40 am

LucasMcCain wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:23 am

Tex1961 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 10:59 am It gets a little tricky with restaurants that have a dedicated bar inside... My understanding is that while you may sit in the restaurant area while carrying, you may not sit at the bar itself. Chili's restaurants is a good example of this.. Many of them have a dedicated bar inside where you cannot sit and drink while carrying...

Somebody please correct me if I am wrong... This very scenario was brought up in my instructor class and so was Chili's...

I am not aware of anything like that in the law. Either you can carry on the premises or you can't. Pretty sure that instructor didn't know what he was talking about.

I just looked up half-a-dozen Chili's Bar and Grills in Seguin, New Braunfels, Austin, and San Marcos on the TABC website. None had a red 51% sign required.

Again, It is defiantly possible I misunderstood that part.. But @mloamiller's post was pretty good in that regard re. movie theater.... Which really I think is the crux here... Not always does a 51% necessarily mean the entire premise..

If a location is posted with a blue sign, the licensed carry is permitted on the whole premise (unless privately posted 30.06/07). Restaurants with bar areas are usually not gonna be separate businesses and you can sit at the bar and drink or not, as long as you’re not intoxicated while carrying (what ‘intoxicated’ means is for another discussion. Search for those on here if curious).

The tricky part can be what is actually the ‘premises’. When a business applies to TABC for a liquor license, they define the area where alcohol is allowed to be consumed on the ‘premises’. That defined area doesn’t show up on readily available information sites. It really is not an issue for <51% locations that post the blue sign, but becomes an issue for >51% businesses with a RED sign as to where you can or can’t carry. USUALLY the whole building will be off limits by definition, so if posted RED, then I just assume the whole place is a no carry zone. The gotcha would be some business that has defined the parking lot or other open outdoor area on their property as part of the premises where alcohol can be consumed under their license. Music venues with stages and open concert areas would be an example of those.

As I stated earlier, I just assume if a business is a RED >51% venue, then anything associated with it will be off limits.

Keith B wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm As I stated earlier, I just assume if a business is a RED >51% venue, then anything associated with it will be off limits.

I used the example of the movie/dinner theatre because I've been in one where there weren't any signs on the front door, or where you purchase movie tickets. Once you get into the lobby area, you can see a bar on one side that has a 51% sign next to it.

Logically, it's hard to believe the entire location gets more than 51% of it's revenue for on-site alcohol consumption, but I also acknowledge that "logic" isn't always a requirement when it comes to laws.

mloamiller wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:36 pm

Keith B wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm As I stated earlier, I just assume if a business is a RED >51% venue, then anything associated with it will be off limits.

I used the example of the movie/dinner theatre because I've been in one where there weren't any signs on the front door, or where you purchase movie tickets. Once you get into the lobby area, you can see a bar on one side that has a 51% sign next to it.

Logically, it's hard to believe the entire location gets more than 51% of it's revenue for on-site alcohol consumption, but I also acknowledge that "logic" isn't always a requirement when it comes to laws.

It’s possible the bar is contracted as a separate business. HOWEVER, if they filed the license to cover the whole building as the ‘premise’, and they allow drinks to be carried into the theaters, then TABC will consider the whole place to be off limits.

A good example of that is Bass Music Hall in Ft Worth. The bar is run by a concessionaire, and they hold the liquor license. They allow alcohol to be consumed in the whole building. So, while the music hall makes none of their revenue from liquor sales for on premise consumption, the concessionaire does. TABC doesn’t separate out the other businesses, but only who holds the license, so that makes rather whole place off limits.

There are other businesses like that as well, such as the Kimbell Art Museum, for one.

mloamiller wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:36 pm

Keith B wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm As I stated earlier, I just assume if a business is a RED >51% venue, then anything associated with it will be off limits.

I used the example of the movie/dinner theatre because I've been in one where there weren't any signs on the front door, or where you purchase movie tickets. Once you get into the lobby area, you can see a bar on one side that has a 51% sign next to it.

Logically, it's hard to believe the entire location gets more than 51% of it's revenue for on-site alcohol consumption, but I also acknowledge that "logic" isn't always a requirement when it comes to laws.

And all of this is why I've been pushing for the removal of state prohibition of carry at "51% locations". It is already against the law to carry while intoxicated. The method in which a business generates the majority of it's revenue should not be a deciding factor in state prohibition. This is not to say the business would not be allowed to prohibit carry on their own by posting compliant signage, I just do not agree with the state prohibition.

Flightmare wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:50 pm

mloamiller wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:36 pm

Keith B wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm As I stated earlier, I just assume if a business is a RED >51% venue, then anything associated with it will be off limits.

I used the example of the movie/dinner theatre because I've been in one where there weren't any signs on the front door, or where you purchase movie tickets. Once you get into the lobby area, you can see a bar on one side that has a 51% sign next to it.

Logically, it's hard to believe the entire location gets more than 51% of it's revenue for on-site alcohol consumption, but I also acknowledge that "logic" isn't always a requirement when it comes to laws.

And all of this is why I've been pushing for the removal of state prohibition of carry at "51% locations". It is already against the law to carry while intoxicated. The method in which a business generates the majority of it's revenue should not be a deciding factor in state prohibition. This is not to say the business would not be allowed to prohibit carry on their own by posting compliant signage, I just do not agree with the state prohibition.

I agree. the 51% rule is really not needed with the intoxication law already on the books. Why should I have to leave my EDC in my vehicle outside a bar when I go to shoot pool for league? I'm not drinking. This makes me either leave my pistol in a location that it's easier to be taken by someone who breaks into my truck, or I have to leave it at home and be unprotected for the majority of the day.

Same thing for Designated Drivers or other situations. Being in or around a 51% facility doesn't mean you're intoxicated. Doesn't even mean you're drinking. Some of us have social lives (I know in these days and times that's taboo)

Flightmare wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:50 pm

mloamiller wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:36 pm

Keith B wrote: ↑Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:05 pm As I stated earlier, I just assume if a business is a RED >51% venue, then anything associated with it will be off limits.

I used the example of the movie/dinner theatre because I've been in one where there weren't any signs on the front door, or where you purchase movie tickets. Once you get into the lobby area, you can see a bar on one side that has a 51% sign next to it.

Logically, it's hard to believe the entire location gets more than 51% of it's revenue for on-site alcohol consumption, but I also acknowledge that "logic" isn't always a requirement when it comes to laws.

And all of this is why I've been pushing for the removal of state prohibition of carry at "51% locations". It is already against the law to carry while intoxicated. The method in which a business generates the majority of it's revenue should not be a deciding factor in state prohibition. This is not to say the business would not be allowed to prohibit carry on their own by posting compliant signage, I just do not agree with the state prohibition.

This is one of the hold-overs from the original CHL bill that we have not been able to change. At this point, there are decades of history that say LTC holders can go to bars with no problem. There should be no distinction on that for "some" bars. I also believe that a lot of the 30.07 signs in restaurants are because of TABC requirements on reporting if there is an "incident" with on customer objecting to another customer with an openly carried handgun. TABC should NOT be part of Texas gun laws.... period. The "unlicensed" carry sign is a joke. Someone who is using a gun illegally in a place that sells liquor is not going to worry about misdemeanor versus felony. Unless I'm mistaken, armed robbery is already a felony. This makes even less sense with the possibility that Constitutional Carry may pass with this Legislative session. Time to get TABC back to just its primary mission.