Houston - HPD TO HOST MEETING ON NEW OPEN CARRY LAW

[Glockster]

I understand there will be stops once 1/1/2016 gets here and I plan to be civil and respectful as I always have but the officer must extend the same courtesy. I will have a problem if they detain me longer than a few minutes in order to check for warrants or some other nonsense. I will have a problem if they start asking questions like where are you going? Where are you coming from? These type of questions have no bearing on my ability to legally OC a firearm once I present my LTC. I view these stops no differently then pulling someone over just to see if they have a drivers license.

It shouldn't even be necessary to discuss this issue at all. I have a license to open or conceal carry and no LEO should be allowed to stop and ask you for your LTC based solely on a person open carrying a firearm.

I also find it insane that we still have to present a drivers license or state issued ID along with our LTC. What purpose does this serve if I am not driving a vehicle? I could understand this if our picture wasn't on the LTC, but really? I don't have to present additional ID when presenting my drivers license so why should the requirement be different for showing LTC when requested?

I personally agree with what you're saying, and especially about them turning a quick verification of CHL into something else. But I can't equate this to being pulled over to see if I have a DL, because as far as I know they aren't allowed to simply randomly pull me over for that either. And having a DL is not covered under 2A. I think that is hugely different, and in other states where it has been found that RAS/PC isn't met by the simple presence of an openly carried handgun in a holster.

ADDED: After re-reading I think I may have first time through not fully caught your DL point.

[G.A. Heath]

Right2Carry: The issue with the DL/ID and CHL/LTC is actually the opposite of most people perception. Most people are thinking Law Enforcement can come up and demand to see the CHL/LTC and we have to show both the CHL/LTC and the DL/ID. LGC §411.205 actually goes the other way and requires you to present your CHL/LTC when an appropriate authority demands your DL/ID.

In essence there is technically no requirement to present your CHL/LTC when asked for it, but there is a requirement to present it when asked for your DL/ID. Looking at the language of LGC §411.205 you will get the idea that the legislatures intent was to require you to notify a magistrate or peace officer that you are armed when they demanded that you present ID.

I know I will regret posting that because now someone in OCT/CATI/OCTC/ect. will read it and decide to keep walking when asked for their CHL/LTC. My advice is not to argue the law with a police officer because the man with handcuffs, a baton, a gun, and similarly equipped buddies who are a radio call away can always declare themselves the winner so they can take you away where it will go to round two. If you end up in court that is the place to argue law, and you need to have an expert/professional do that for you. Instead of arguing with the officer document the details of the encounter, collect any information you can, and then hang onto it in case we see a need to try resurrecting something like the Dutton language. Two or three well documented cases would be valuable to the legislative efforts, twenty or so would show there is a real problem, but a few hundred would show there is a serious problem and that it needs to be addressed. Always remain polite, calm, and friendly when encountering LE. A well documented case of OC harassment will not be helpful if he officer shows his video with you calling them road pirates, pigs, and oath breakers. In fact you will be making their case for them.

[mojo84]

I do not come in contact with 10 cops per month much less 10 daily. I think this concern is being way overblown. This argument is about as credible as people saying there will be blood running in the streets or the murder rate will go through the roof if people are allowed to open carry. Showing them our license until we all get used to it does not defeat our rights. The time to take up the Constitutional rights argument is not on the sidewalk at the time. All that does is escalate the situation. File a complaint or civil rights lawsuit afterward.

I think some on both sides of the issue are going too far trying to make the other side out to be the bad guys. Let's see how all this plays out before we get up in a tizzy over something that may not even come to fruition.

Are you saying you don't believe in 'probable cause'? You can't have it both ways... either you believe in it or you don't. The concern of multiple stops per day is real.

Why jump to the extreme? Where did I say I do not believe in probable cause? Would I have said one can file a complaint or civil rights lawsuit if I didn't believe in probable cause?

Arguing on the side of the road is only good for making stupid YouTube videos and looking like a fool.

[oljames3]

I watched the HPD forum as it was streaming. As some have noted in the discussion here, one of the main points of interest during the HPD forum was how law enforcement would go about identifying those who were legally carrying openly.

As have many here, I took an oath a long time ago to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. This is in line with my personal religious faith. I live out both of these by exercising my constitutional rights, obeying laws, voting, and participating in the governmental process as much as I can.

This will not change on 1/1/16.

I am participating in my city's Citizen Police Academy. I'm talking to the Assistant Chief, Detectives, Sergeants, and Officers. Here in Elgin, Texas, the police leadership has told me that officers will not be stopping all those carrying openly after 1/1/16. Rather, it will be business as usual. I also asked about paddle holsters during one of the meetings, as a sergeant was wearing one. Here in Elgin, paddle holsters are belt holsters.

I have found this approach of engaging with our police in a non-confrontational setting to be very effective in answering my questions and expanding my understanding of how they will enforce the law after 1/1/16. Elgin PD answers were not always the same as HPD answers. Your mileage will vary.

After much studying, questioning, listening, and pondering, I have determined what I feel to be the most tactically and strategically sound approach for me and mine. I will politely cooperate with law enforcement as they discharge their duties. I will work within the established political process to change what I feel should be changed. I will exercise my rights and obey the law. I will carry openly when I can, disarm when I must, and conceal as the situation dictates. In short, I will continue to go about my life as I have for the last 42 years.

[chasfm11]

Right2Carry: The issue with the DL/ID and CHL/LTC is actually the opposite of most people perception. Most people are thinking Law Enforcement can come up and demand to see the CHL/LTC and we have to show both the CHL/LTC and the DL/ID. LGC §411.205 actually goes the other way and requires you to present your CHL/LTC when an appropriate authority demands your DL/ID.

So if I take your point and attempt to apply it to a hypothetical situation, I should be able to supply only a CHL to an officer trying to verify that I'm legally OC. Other than driving restrictions, expiration date and DL#, there is no information on the DL that is not also on the CHL. I had planned to put my CHL in a shirt pocket where it would be easy (and visible to reach with my weak side hand) if I do decide to OC. The risk is if I forget to put it back into my wallet after returning home. I would have my wallet and DL with me, too, but in a hip pocket.

One of the chiefs of police in a local town here also held a town meeting that drew about 50 people. Based on the questions, I suspect the large majority of them were CHL holders. The presenting officer fielded the question about when they might ask for verification from someone OC after they are dispatched to the scene. He pretty much said it would depend on the demeanor of the individual that they contacted and that the dispatch itself would depend on how insistent the complainant was. They have trained their dispatchers to ask questions and to inform the callers that OC is legal in the case of MWAG calls. The chief and several of his officers said that they are in contact with CHLs nearly every day (they have a VERY aggressive traffic enforcement program) and have never had problems with them. They don't expect anything about that to change starting in January.

[G.A. Heath]

The theory: If Officer comes up and asks for your CHL you can potentially tell him to go pound sand, show only it to him, or show him your DL and CHL. I chose to list these responses in order of bad to better to best.

Theory Pt2: If the same officer shows up and asks for your ID you are required to provide both your ID and your CHL if you are carrying.

Reality: Telling the officer to pound sand will likely result in him assuming sand is a code word for your freedom. Showing only your CHL if that is requested can get varying results from officers depending on the officer, his attitude, your attitude, and other circumstances. Showing both will be the best option to resolving the situation quickly and getting on your way.

[Glockster]

They have trained their dispatchers to ask questions and to inform the callers that OC is legal in the case of MWAG calls. The chief and several of his officers said that they are in contact with CHLs nearly every day (they have a VERY aggressive traffic enforcement program) and have never had problems with them. They don't expect anything about that to change starting in January.

That's good news to hear for you then. That's the way that it was when I lived in another state with constitutional OC in that all dispatchers were trained to that and they also did a very good job of sniffing out the bull if someone tried to make a claim that MWAG was then waving it around or such. That is what I'd hoped to hear from HPD, that they had trained everyone to this same approach, but I didn't hear that and instead I heard that they will investigate any call.