Mini Rant over HB910 and Horizontal Shoulder Holsters

[jmra]

I responded to your comment that no one was "swept" with a muzzle if the trigger was covered by the holster. This simply is not the case. When the muzzle points at a person, that person has been swept and that violates one of the cardinal gun safety rules.
Chas.

Well can disagree on this and Kathy disagrees with you too.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/hols ... our-rules/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We can argue till the cows come home about how safe this type of carry is, but for the vast majority of the public perception is reality. If it makes people on this forum (who have many more years experience handling firearms and teaching firearm safety than Kathy does) uncomfortable how do you think it's going to make the general public feel? That is a rhetorical question because we all already know the answer. The perception of the public is going to be "that gun is pointed right at me" and the people they say that to are going to be the people who are going to feel that they have no other choice than to ban OC from their establishment.
We always talk about how OC isn't a big deal other places and most people don't even notice. I agree with that when we are talking about a subdued OWB holster. Most people's eyes aren't focused on people's hands and waistline thus the firearm goes unnoticed. But a shoulder holster not only draws a lot more attention because it falls in most people's line of sight, it also draws attention to the firearm. Add a barrel pointing at you and you're asking for the sheep to panic which will only result in more limitations on where and how we can carry.
I know there are some that are going to say that if they don't like it they can move. My response to that is you are going to be the one moving - out the door. Unfortunately you are not the only one who will pay the price for your actions.

[Taypo]

I responded to your comment that no one was "swept" with a muzzle if the trigger was covered by the holster. This simply is not the case. When the muzzle points at a person, that person has been swept and that violates one of the cardinal gun safety rules.
Chas.

Well can disagree on this and Kathy disagrees with you too.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/hols ... our-rules/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We can argue till the cows come home about how safe this type of carry is, but for the vast majority of the public perception is reality. If it makes people on this forum (who have many more years experience handling firearms and teaching firearm safety than Kathy does) uncomfortable how do you think it's going to make the general public feel? That is a rhetorical question because we all already know the answer. The perception of the public is going to be "that gun is pointed right at me" and the people they say that to are going to be the people who are going to feel that they have no other choice than to ban OC from their establishment.
We always talk about how OC isn't a big deal other places and most people don't even notice. I agree with that when we are talking about a subdued OWB holster. Most people's eyes aren't focused on people's hands and waistline thus the firearm goes unnoticed. But a shoulder holster not only draws a lot more attention because it falls in most people's line of sight, it also draws attention to the firearm. Add a barrel pointing at you and you're asking for the sheep to panic which will only result in more limitations on where and how we can carry.
I know there are some that are going to say that if they don't like it they can move. My response to that is you are going to be the one moving - out the door. Unfortunately you are not the only one who will pay the price for your actions.

[harrycallahan]

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

I don't flag. I don't like being flagged.

A pistol in a holster that properly covers the trigger isn't sweeping or flagging or muzzle covering or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inert object with regards to safety and gun handling unless you put your paws on it.

I have to disagree with you there. When I'm teaching a class, if the muzzle of a student's handgun points at another student, then the offending student has swept another person with their muzzle, regardless of their placement of their trigger finger. When the muzzle points at something "you are not willing to destroy," that person or thing has been swept.

Yes, horizontal shoulder holsters are safe when properly designed and used for a specific handgun. Nevertheless, at a minimum it is extremely rude and irresponsible to openly wear a horizontal shoulder holster and put other people in fear. I know how they work and I have one of every type (for demonstration purposes) but there's no way on this earth I'd knowingly stand behind some wearing one and stare down the barrel. Safety rules are protocols and protocols are effective only when you follow them all the time.

BTW, covering the trigger may not be the end of the story. For striker-fired weapons it is, but not for hammer-fired handguns. Those handguns need to be secured with a strap that is between the hammer and firing pin because a sear an fail. I know, I had it happen.
Chas.

Your first two paragraphs are in conflict. I agree a muzzle sweep is a safety violation and I agree shoulder holsters are safe, but that's not what you're saying is it? Or is it? Because if you really believe shoulder holsters are safe then by extension you cannot believe that you can be swept by one. Or can you? Second, you're usually the first to point this out to an OP so I'm a bit surprised you did it. I cannot accept your "I know" as factual information alone in either case that you've used it. Elaborate how a sear failure is only dangerous while in a should holster and how that makes a shoulder holster unsafe. I understand that you and most OPs don't like them, but please do not distort firearm safety rules and use fear just to make your point. If it is etiquette reform or firearm safety training from a defensive draw scenario using a shoulder holster then that makes sense. Everything else is indeed a rant.

[Excaliber]

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

I don't flag. I don't like being flagged.

A pistol in a holster that properly covers the trigger isn't sweeping or flagging or muzzle covering or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inert object with regards to safety and gun handling unless you put your paws on it.

I have to disagree with you there. When I'm teaching a class, if the muzzle of a student's handgun points at another student, then the offending student has swept another person with their muzzle, regardless of their placement of their trigger finger. When the muzzle points at something "you are not willing to destroy," that person or thing has been swept.

Yes, horizontal shoulder holsters are safe when properly designed and used for a specific handgun. Nevertheless, at a minimum it is extremely rude and irresponsible to openly wear a horizontal shoulder holster and put other people in fear. I know how they work and I have one of every type (for demonstration purposes) but there's no way on this earth I'd knowingly stand behind some wearing one and stare down the barrel. Safety rules are protocols and protocols are effective only when you follow them all the time.

BTW, covering the trigger may not be the end of the story. For striker-fired weapons it is, but not for hammer-fired handguns. Those handguns need to be secured with a strap that is between the hammer and firing pin because a sear an fail. I know, I had it happen.
Chas.

Your first two paragraphs are in conflict. I agree a muzzle sweep is a safety violation and I agree shoulder holsters are safe, but that's not what you're saying is it? Or is it? Because if you really believe shoulder holsters are safe then by extension you cannot believe that you can be swept by one. Or can you? Second, you're usually the first to point this out to an OP so I'm a bit surprised you did it. I cannot accept your "I know" as factual information alone in either case that you've used it. Elaborate how a sear failure is only dangerous while in a should holster and how that makes a shoulder holster unsafe. I understand that you and most OPs don't like them, but please do not distort firearm safety rules and use fear just to make your point. If it is etiquette reform or firearm safety training from a defensive draw scenario using a shoulder holster then that makes sense. Everything else is indeed a rant.

Shoulder holsters of all types are nearly universally prohibited on police ranges because of safety issues involved with unintentional release of the pistol with subsequent fall to the ground, and muzzle sweeps of persons to the rear and side during the draw. There are many scary and sometimes tragic historical reasons for this.

Yes, a gun in a shoulder holster at rest is theoretically safe. So is a loaded pistol sitting on a table, but you won't find me ever sitting in alignment with the muzzle of one or behind anyone I know is carrying in a horizontal shoulder holster. Safety rules are rigidly adhered to for the purpose of averting tragedy from unforeseen circumstances, and I don't plan on being the star victim in one of those "nobody could have foreseen this" negligent discharges.

I too have seen sear failures, though fortunately none in a situation that resulted in injury. I take strong exception to your disparagement of Charles' sharing of knowledge from his very extensive experience. His word is as good as it gets in this world. Wise men learn from such folks without having to repeat every mistake for themselves in order to learn.

[TXBO]

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

I don't flag. I don't like being flagged.

A pistol in a holster that properly covers the trigger isn't sweeping or flagging or muzzle covering or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inert object with regards to safety and gun handling unless you put your paws on it.

I have to disagree with you there. When I'm teaching a class, if the muzzle of a student's handgun points at another student, then the offending student has swept another person with their muzzle, regardless of their placement of their trigger finger. When the muzzle points at something "you are not willing to destroy," that person or thing has been swept.

Yes, horizontal shoulder holsters are safe when properly designed and used for a specific handgun. Nevertheless, at a minimum it is extremely rude and irresponsible to openly wear a horizontal shoulder holster and put other people in fear. I know how they work and I have one of every type (for demonstration purposes) but there's no way on this earth I'd knowingly stand behind some wearing one and stare down the barrel. Safety rules are protocols and protocols are effective only when you follow them all the time.

BTW, covering the trigger may not be the end of the story. For striker-fired weapons it is, but not for hammer-fired handguns. Those handguns need to be secured with a strap that is between the hammer and firing pin because a sear an fail. I know, I had it happen.
Chas.

Your first two paragraphs are in conflict. I agree a muzzle sweep is a safety violation and I agree shoulder holsters are safe, but that's not what you're saying is it? Or is it? Because if you really believe shoulder holsters are safe then by extension you cannot believe that you can be swept by one. Or can you? Second, you're usually the first to point this out to an OP so I'm a bit surprised you did it. I cannot accept your "I know" as factual information alone in either case that you've used it. Elaborate how a sear failure is only dangerous while in a should holster and how that makes a shoulder holster unsafe. I understand that you and most OPs don't like them, but please do not distort firearm safety rules and use fear just to make your point. If it is etiquette reform or firearm safety training from a defensive draw scenario using a shoulder holster then that makes sense. Everything else is indeed a rant.

"Do not distort firearms safety rules"? Putting caveats on rule number 2 is a distortion.

[Javier730]

I responded to your comment that no one was "swept" with a muzzle if the trigger was covered by the holster. This simply is not the case. When the muzzle points at a person, that person has been swept and that violates one of the cardinal gun safety rules.
Chas.

Well can disagree on this and Kathy disagrees with you too.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/hols ... our-rules/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We can argue till the cows come home about how safe this type of carry is, but for the vast majority of the public perception is reality. If it makes people on this forum (who have many more years experience handling firearms and teaching firearm safety than Kathy does) uncomfortable how do you think it's going to make the general public feel? That is a rhetorical question because we all already know the answer. The perception of the public is going to be "that gun is pointed right at me" and the people they say that to are going to be the people who are going to feel that they have no other choice than to ban OC from their establishment.
We always talk about how OC isn't a big deal other places and most people don't even notice. I agree with that when we are talking about a subdued OWB holster. Most people's eyes aren't focused on people's hands and waistline thus the firearm goes unnoticed. But a shoulder holster not only draws a lot more attention because it falls in most people's line of sight, it also draws attention to the firearm. Add a barrel pointing at you and you're asking for the sheep to panic which will only result in more limitations on where and how we can carry.
I know there are some that are going to say that if they don't like it they can move. My response to that is you are going to be the one moving - out the door. Unfortunately you are not the only one who will pay the price for your actions.

[android]

"Do not distort firearms safety rules"? Putting caveats on rule number 2 is a distortion.

Either a gun in a holster is safe or it is not. If it is not, (assuming IWB/OWB) then why do you want to shoot your truck or car, sofa or anyplace else you might sit? Unless you are standing at attention all day long on grass or soft dirt so that there is no fear of ricochet and never on the second floor of a structure that might have somebody on the lower floor, you have violated rule 2. We know bullets go through drywall and plywood with no problem.

So either it applies to a gun in a holster and therefore you probably break it all the time or it does not.
Please make up our minds.

Are we truly discussing safety or perception and appearance of safety?

[Javier730]

"Do not distort firearms safety rules"? Putting caveats on rule number 2 is a distortion.

Either a gun in a holster is safe or it is not. If it is not, (assuming IWB/OWB) then why do you want to shoot your truck or car, sofa or anyplace else you might sit? Unless you are standing at attention all day long on grass or soft dirt so that there is no fear of ricochet and never on the second floor of a structure that might have somebody on the lower floor, you have violated rule 2. We know bullets go through drywall and plywood with no problem.

So either it applies to a gun in a holster and therefore you probably break it all the time or it does not.
Please make up our minds.

Are we truly discussing safety or perception and appearance of safety?

We here on this forum know this. People who's only knowledge of guns is what they saw on Expendables 3 or on their kids Call of duty game might not know this. People with no knowledge will be the ones who are uncomfortable. Heck, even I know the gun is safe but I would still be uncomfortable with someones 1911 sweeping by my sons head at IHOP. I know holstered guns are safe, I also know empty guns are safe but I still keep them down range. I still don't think it is okay to have them sweeping in peoples direction.

[harrycallahan]

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

I don't flag. I don't like being flagged.

A pistol in a holster that properly covers the trigger isn't sweeping or flagging or muzzle covering or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inert object with regards to safety and gun handling unless you put your paws on it.

I have to disagree with you there. When I'm teaching a class, if the muzzle of a student's handgun points at another student, then the offending student has swept another person with their muzzle, regardless of their placement of their trigger finger. When the muzzle points at something "you are not willing to destroy," that person or thing has been swept.

Yes, horizontal shoulder holsters are safe when properly designed and used for a specific handgun. Nevertheless, at a minimum it is extremely rude and irresponsible to openly wear a horizontal shoulder holster and put other people in fear. I know how they work and I have one of every type (for demonstration purposes) but there's no way on this earth I'd knowingly stand behind some wearing one and stare down the barrel. Safety rules are protocols and protocols are effective only when you follow them all the time.

BTW, covering the trigger may not be the end of the story. For striker-fired weapons it is, but not for hammer-fired handguns. Those handguns need to be secured with a strap that is between the hammer and firing pin because a sear an fail. I know, I had it happen.
Chas.

Your first two paragraphs are in conflict. I agree a muzzle sweep is a safety violation and I agree shoulder holsters are safe, but that's not what you're saying is it? Or is it? Because if you really believe shoulder holsters are safe then by extension you cannot believe that you can be swept by one. Or can you? Second, you're usually the first to point this out to an OP so I'm a bit surprised you did it. I cannot accept your "I know" as factual information alone in either case that you've used it. Elaborate how a sear failure is only dangerous while in a should holster and how that makes a shoulder holster unsafe. I understand that you and most OPs don't like them, but please do not distort firearm safety rules and use fear just to make your point. If it is etiquette reform or firearm safety training from a defensive draw scenario using a shoulder holster then that makes sense. Everything else is indeed a rant.

Shoulder holsters of all types are nearly universally prohibited on police ranges because of safety issues involved with unintentional release of the pistol with subsequent fall to the ground, and muzzle sweeps of persons to the rear and side during the draw. There are many scary and sometimes tragic historical reasons for this.

Yes, a gun in a shoulder holster at rest is theoretically safe. So is a loaded pistol sitting on a table, but you won't find me ever sitting in alignment with the muzzle of one or behind anyone I know is carrying in a horizontal shoulder holster. Safety rules are rigidly adhered to for the purpose of averting tragedy from unforeseen circumstances, and I don't plan on being the star victim in one of those "nobody could have foreseen this" negligent discharges.

I too have seen sear failures, though fortunately none in a situation that resulted in injury. I take strong exception to your disparagement of Charles' sharing of knowledge from his very extensive experience. His word is as good as it gets in this world. Wise men learn from such folks without having to repeat every mistake for themselves in order to learn.

I disagree with you about your disparaging comment and here is why. Actually exact opposite is true. For the most part I found this thread non serious and was not interested. I may have answered one serious question Re holsters but then I read comments like those from jmra and I realized this is a rant and left. Later Charles chimed in and brought legitimacy to this conversation. The problem was I needed more information than he provided. I know and so do you that if all else were equal and I made those comments that he'd call me on it. Rightfully so. I don't doubt he'll tie it all together. I just don't know of any other way than to ask, so I did. In the process we may disagree, but that doesn't make he or I a bad person, just different. In the meantime I know that my weapon under my arm neither violates any safety rule nor is any less safe than any other method of carry until a holster or reholster happens. That may change once Charles speaks I don't know, but disparaging never. He, you, even JMRA and perhaps a dozen or so more are who I consider authoritative in this forum. Meaning I will listen. I may not agree, but I'll listen.

[karder]

Hope this isn't in the wrong forum area, but for curiosity sake, how many of you practice shoulder holster carry? I have always considered it but was afraid it would be uncomfortable (I had to wear an immobility harness once for an injury and it was terrible). I carry a Glock 19...any holster recommendations? If somewhat comfortable, this is a type of carry I would like to try.

I really like shoulder holsters because I don't have much in the way of hips and I find myself hiking my pants up all day when using an IWB holster. The key is to get a good quality shoulder rig. I tried nylon ones from Uncle Mike and Fobus and I hated them. They never fit right and my gun would flop around a bit and was not very concealable as it never wanted to stay in place properly. After a recommendation from someone on this forum I got this blackhills rig.
https://blackhillsleather.com/shoulder- ... lster.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I carry a beretta 96 in it and it is super comfortable. Everyone is different so I don't know if it will work for you. I don't think my draw is as fast as in a belt holster, but I don't expect to get in any fast draw contests and the comfort and concealment is great as most of the time I just wear a dark t-shirt with a light button-up over the top. The gun stays tight against my side, it does not move and the hold is very secure. Also no muzzle issues as it is a vertical carry. My main recommendation is don't do what I did and get a cheap shoulder holster, and if you want a cheap one I have two that I will never use again so you can have them.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I responded to your comment that no one was "swept" with a muzzle if the trigger was covered by the holster. This simply is not the case. When the muzzle points at a person, that person has been swept and that violates one of the cardinal gun safety rules.
Chas.

Well can disagree on this and Kathy disagrees with you too.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/hols ... our-rules/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess "Kathy" and I disagree as do you and I. Back to the point, "sweeping" someone with a muzzle occurs when the muzzle of the firearm points at a person.

Chas.

[TXBO]

I responded to your comment that no one was "swept" with a muzzle if the trigger was covered by the holster. This simply is not the case. When the muzzle points at a person, that person has been swept and that violates one of the cardinal gun safety rules.
Chas.

Well can disagree on this and Kathy disagrees with you too.

http://www.corneredcat.com/article/hols ... our-rules/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I guess "Kathy" and I disagree as do you and I. Back to the point, "sweeping" someone with a muzzle occurs when the muzzle of the firearm points at a person.

Chas.

One of the great experiences of my life was taking a defensive pistol class from Jeff Cooper. This was many years ago but I can still hear him put the emphasis on "Never" as he explained the second rule of firearms safety.

[Charles L. Cotton]

RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY

I don't flag. I don't like being flagged.

A pistol in a holster that properly covers the trigger isn't sweeping or flagging or muzzle covering or whatever you want to call it.
It's an inert object with regards to safety and gun handling unless you put your paws on it.

I have to disagree with you there. When I'm teaching a class, if the muzzle of a student's handgun points at another student, then the offending student has swept another person with their muzzle, regardless of their placement of their trigger finger. When the muzzle points at something "you are not willing to destroy," that person or thing has been swept.

Yes, horizontal shoulder holsters are safe when properly designed and used for a specific handgun. Nevertheless, at a minimum it is extremely rude and irresponsible to openly wear a horizontal shoulder holster and put other people in fear. I know how they work and I have one of every type (for demonstration purposes) but there's no way on this earth I'd knowingly stand behind some wearing one and stare down the barrel. Safety rules are protocols and protocols are effective only when you follow them all the time.

BTW, covering the trigger may not be the end of the story. For striker-fired weapons it is, but not for hammer-fired handguns. Those handguns need to be secured with a strap that is between the hammer and firing pin because a sear an fail. I know, I had it happen.
Chas.

Your first two paragraphs are in conflict. I agree a muzzle sweep is a safety violation and I agree shoulder holsters are safe, but that's not what you're saying is it? Or is it?

I've been a firearms instructor for over 40 years and until this thread, I've never seen anyone claim that pointing a muzzle at someone is not "sweeping" that person. Without question it is sweeping and I know of no instructor who would argue otherwise. If they would, then I would question their professionalism.

Because if you really believe shoulder holsters are safe then by extension you cannot believe that you can be swept by one. Or can you?

You are mixing two issues into one question. As noted above, anyone who points the muzzle of their firearm at someone has "swept" them, and I don't care if "Kathy" or anyone else thinks this long-standing rule applies only to firearms in one's hand. Whether or not someone has been swept with a muzzle is a factual inquiry that has nothing do to with whether or not the person being swept has a feeling of safety. In essence, both you and android are arguing "no harm, no foul." If you believe the gun is safe, then it's okay to let the muzzle point at someone. I could not disagree more.

As to the safety of shoulder holsters, I think it was clear from android's post that he was combining sweeping someone with a spontaneous discharge of the pistol while in a holster. (See his appendix example.) I was speaking only to this aspect of shoulder holsters. That's why I noted that it must be made for the specific handgun, as opposed to universal "Uncle Mike" type of holster and that hammer-fired handguns must have a security strap between the hammer and the firing pin. For the reasons Excaliber mentioned, shoulder holsters are banned by many LEO agencies and horizontal shoulder holsters are banned at our shooting club.

Second, you're usually the first to point this out to an OP so I'm a bit surprised you did it. I cannot accept your "I know" as factual information alone in either case that you've used it. Elaborate how a sear failure is only dangerous while in a should holster and how that makes a shoulder holster unsafe.

I'm tempted to tell you to do your own research if you don't think sears fail. Nevertheless, I will say that I had a sear fail on a 38Super in an 1911. The hammer had followed the slide down after I had fired a round and I thought it was just that, the hammer had followed the slide. (This is not unusual with very light triggers used on competition guns.) Not realizing that the sear had failed, I cocked the hammer and when my thumb came off, it slammed down and the fun fired. I had a thumb twice its normal size for about a day and one more arrow in my quiver of experience.

Show me where I wrote that "sear failure is only dangerous while in a shoulder holster." I was pointing out that hammer fired handgun carried in a horizontal shoulder must have the safety strap between the hammer and firing pin. Why? Because using a horizontal shoulder holster will result in sweeping people with the muzzle of your gun. If a sear fails while the gun is in a traditional belt holster, it's far less likely to result in someone being shot. Yes, some people here try to support their claims with various magic/bouncing bullet arguments.

I understand that you and most OPs don't like them, but please do not distort firearm safety rules and use fear just to make your point. If it is etiquette reform or firearm safety training from a defensive draw scenario using a shoulder holster then that makes sense. Everything else is indeed a rant.

I'm not distorting firearm safety rules; you're doing that. "Do not point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy" is a rule that firearms instructors have used for decades. You and others are trying to water that down by adding the phrase "unless it is safe to do so." Therein lies the distortion and it won't fly with knowledgeable, experienced handgunners whether instructors or not.

You and others also ignore the thrust of my comments which are primarily directed at not giving open-carry bad press by scaring people who are swept by your muzzle.

Chas.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I responded to your comment that no one was "swept" with a muzzle if the trigger was covered by the holster. This simply is not the case. When the muzzle points at a person, that person has been swept and that violates one of the cardinal gun safety rules.
Chas.

Well can disagree on this and Kathy disagrees with you too.

BTW, did you miss my question to you, or do you simply not want to respond. Here it is again "If you are in line at a restaurant and the person in front of you is wearing a horizontal shoulder holster with the muzzle point at you or a loved one, are you going to move or just stand there?

Chas.

[Javier730]

I responded to your comment that no one was "swept" with a muzzle if the trigger was covered by the holster. This simply is not the case. When the muzzle points at a person, that person has been swept and that violates one of the cardinal gun safety rules.
Chas.

Well can disagree on this and Kathy disagrees with you too.

BTW, did you miss my question to you, or do you simply not want to respond. Here it is again "If you are in line at a restaurant and the person in front of you is wearing a horizontal shoulder holster with the muzzle point at you or a loved one, are you going to move or just stand there?

Chas.

Im sure he would move himself and/or family away from the muzzles direction, but Im just as sure he will not admit that.