Carry method?

[SlowDave]

What are you planning on doing when you need your other hand for something else?

I don't know about "needing it for something else," but if it is not available, I'll have to make up a new plan, or else get it loose. Same as any of us if we had both hands not available. Or if you have your strong-side hand not available and can't reach your carry position with your weak hand. Life is full of hazards.

This is one of the best arguments for keeping on in the pipe though, I concede.

[Skiprr]

Thanks for all the input. Addressing a few of the topics:

I realize an IWB would be a much quicker draw.

My earlier point about the draw had nothing to do with speed, but with surety. A quarter-second here or a half-second there actually makes little difference in most real-world situations. My post was based on your own opinion that your belly-band carry method was awkward and insecure.

Your ability to quickly obtain a secure and trusted grip on your gun in a fashion that does not allow the bad guy an easy way to foul your draw makes all the difference in the world.

All the difference in the world.

When you draw, if your elbow is way up in the air, your shoulder attenuated, and your wrist flexed...well, that's a prescription for disaster. The bad guy needs a fraction of a second to foul your draw and dislocate your shoulder.

On the street, history shows us that the odds of having to draw a gun on a threat even 20 feet away are relatively slim. Outside your home, unless you're caught in a gang shooting crossfire or a mall shooting type of situation, the odds are your attacker will not be truly identified as an attacker until he is less than 10 feet from you...probably less than six feet.

He wants to close distance because it's in his best interest.

"Hey, man, I just need some directions. I'm new here and I need some help. Please."

At realistic assault distances, you may need one or both hands to fend off an attack, which may very likely be a knife.

And if you aren't prepared, a knife at extreme close quarters can be as effective at ending conflict as a gun. Don't underestimate a blade.

"Then just please give me the time. What time is it?"

If you can't get your hand on your gun quickly--with a solid master grip--then having a gun does you little good.

A gun is not a magic wand.

Having one doesn't automatically make the bad guys go away.

That's up to the individual operator and his training.

[Locksmith]

. .

[asahi1234]

COCKED AND LOCKED ON THE RIGHTS INSIDE THE WAISTED BAND.

[Excaliber]

Thanks for all the input. Addressing a few of the topics:

I realize an IWB would be a much quicker draw.

My earlier point about the draw had nothing to do with speed, but with surety. A quarter-second here or a half-second there actually makes little difference in most real-world situations. My post was based on your own opinion that your belly-band carry method was awkward and insecure.

Your ability to quickly obtain a secure and trusted grip on your gun in a fashion that does not allow the bad guy an easy way to foul your draw makes all the difference in the world.......

If you can't get your hand on your gun quickly--with a solid master grip--then having a gun does you little good.

A gun is not a magic wand.

Having one doesn't automatically make the bad guys go away.

That's up to the individual operator and his training.

At long distances, speed of draw becomes less important. The closer you are to the threat, the greater his ability to react effectively to your drawing motion and do damage. Correspondingly, as distance closes, the speed of the draw, even in fractions of a second, becomes increasingly important.

However, speed at the expense of surety is gamble. Will the one draw that really counts be a good one or not? You can't afford uncertainty here.

If you practice by starting slowly and executing perfect draws every time, speed comes naturally from economy and fluidity of movement.

Skiprr is also right on about the magic wand. Not all criminals are intimidated at the sight of a gun, especially within grabbing distance, and even solid K-zone hits are not reliable instant fight stoppers. You may still end up fending off or fighting hand to hand with someone you've shot until blood loss weakens him.

[mr.72]

Do you have recommendations?

I really like my Kahr. They make a CW40. I would hate to have to shoot that one though. The CW9 has a harsh enough recoil with +P 9mm rounds, I would think a .40 would be a lot to handle.

[Keith B]

Do you have recommendations?

I really like my Kahr. They make a CW40. I would hate to have to shoot that one though. The CW9 has a harsh enough recoil with +P 9mm rounds, I would think a .40 would be a lot to handle.

I have shot both the PM9 (my main carry) and PM40. The .40 is definitely a lot more to manage. These are slightly smaller than the CW series, but I would think they would be very similar in reaction. I have yet to shoot the PM45, but plan to rent one if possible the next time I am at the range. It is just barely larger than the PM9 and I think the difference in the ballistics on the .45 over the .40 should make it easier to handle.

[mr.72]

PM has 1/2" shorter barrel and a 1/2" shorter grip. PM9 feels just about the same to shoot as a CW9, really close anyway.

The PM45 is just about the same size as a CW9/P9 in length and grip length, and of course thicker. The thin profile of the CW9 makes it very easy to conceal. I think a PM would be a little easier to conceal but considering I can get my whole hand on the grip of the CW and my pinky hangs off the PM, I think the tradeoff in size is worth it. Plus, the CW series are $100-200 cheaper than the comparable P or PM, and the PMs still have a nagging problem with barrel peening that Kahr seems to be stumped to solve.

[Excaliber]

I have shot both the PM9 (my main carry) and PM40. The .40 is definitely a lot more to manage. These are slightly smaller than the CW series, but I would think they would be very similar in reaction. I have yet to shoot the PM45, but plan to rent one if possible the next time I am at the range. It is just barely larger than the PM9 and I think the difference in the ballistics on the .45 over the .40 should make it easier to handle.

The PM40 is definitely snappy due to its small size, light weight, and the characteristics of the .40 S&W cartridge. I have several hundred rounds through a PM45, and it's got a healthy recoil too - noticeably more than the .40.

Neither of these guns is hard to control for an experienced shooter after you get the feel of them, but they both take some adaptations of the firing grip because of their small size. I had to adjust my positioning of the support hand thumb to keep it from putting upward pressure on the slide lock which would lock the slide open before the magazine was empty.

The slide lock serrations on the PM45 were also sharp enough to draw blood until I cured that with a bit of judicious file work.

[SlowDave]

My earlier point about the draw had nothing to do with speed, but with surety. A quarter-second here or a half-second there actually makes little difference in most real-world situations. My post was based on your own opinion that your belly-band carry method was awkward and insecure.

On the street, history shows us that the odds of having to draw a gun on a threat even 20 feet away are relatively slim. Outside your home, unless you're caught in a gang shooting crossfire or a mall shooting type of situation, the odds are your attacker will not be truly identified as an attacker until he is less than 10 feet from you...probably less than six feet.

Good points. I will do more dry-fire practice to get a better handle (pun intended) on the security of the draw from the belly band while also paying attention to the time req'd to rack the slide. I understand the distance of most encounters will be <20 ft. The purpose in shooting at that distance is as a worst-case scenario. I guess shooting at shorter distances, though not helping me train for accuracy, might help me focus on the pertinent parameters (more about a secure, speedy, sure draw and less about real "aiming").

A gun is not a magic wand.

Having one doesn't automatically make the bad guys go away.

WHAT!!!!!???? If I'd known this, I wouldn't have spent all that money on the gun and class and all. I'm pretty sure someone told me it was a magic wand and bad guys would be repelled by my shield of gun-ness. Maybe you should double-check this and make sure, since I'm pretty sure mine's a magic wand.

[SlowDave]

Skiprr is also right on about the magic wand. Not all criminals are intimidated at the sight of a gun, especially within grabbing distance, and even solid K-zone hits are not reliable instant fight stoppers. You may still end up fending off or fighting hand to hand with someone you've shot until blood loss weakens him.

Again with the magic wand... sheesh. I have no thought whatsoever that the gun will scare anyone away. Instead, my opinion is that brandishing is likely to bring out the best that your opponent has (if he hasn't already brought his full force into the fight before that). My prep is based on the idea that when/if I bring a firearm into view, the BG will be firing/stabbing/punching/beating or whatever immediately upon viewing my firearm, realizing that it's now him or me.

I'm pretty clear on all this. I figure if I shoot a deer at 100 yards and deliver ~2000 ft.lb of energy to an animal of about 150 lbs, with an exit wound the size of my fist, and they run 50-75 yards before they die, then shooting a person with this pea-shooter (.40 or .45) and delivering maybe 500 ft.lb of energy isn't gonna make them suddenly keel over, unless you hit them in a very vital region (e.g. brain or spinal cord). I'm under no impression that I can just shoot once and re-holster and walk away.

Sure hope all this prep and thoughts of possible scenarios is for naught and I never get in one of these situations. But if I do, I plan to be as prepared as possible. Appreciate everyone's input (well, maybe not re: my magic wand, but otherwise...). Also, I didn't respond, but the person who recommended formal training is appreciated as well. Don't know when I'll get the time/money to do it, but would sure like to.

[Oldgringo]

I'm with you, Slowdave.

I am fairly vigilant. Y'all have convinced me to carry loaded, cocked and locked and that's no longer a problem.

I'm afraid; however, if I get in a situation where I have to draw my concealed weapon from its holster under my shirt/jacket or out of my pocket, acquire my aggressor target and eliminate him/her in a quarter or half second, I'll be SOL. I just ain't that fast...no more.

[Liberty]

I'm with you, Slowdave.

I am fairly vigilant. Y'all have convinced me to carry loaded, cocked and locked and that's no longer a problem.

I'm afraid; however, if I get in a situation where I have to draw my concealed weapon from its holster under my shirt/jacket or out of my pocket, acquire my aggressor target and eliminate him/her in a quarter or half second, I'll be SOL. I just ain't that fast...no more.

Practice will help a whole lot. Just remember what the IPDA folks keep preaching Slow is smooth ... smooth is fast. practice unhurried and smoothly. I went to the TexasCHLForum day and the draw class was a huge help in understanding concealed draw and how it works.

[Excaliber]

I'm with you, Slowdave.

I am fairly vigilant. Y'all have convinced me to carry loaded, cocked and locked and that's no longer a problem.

I'm afraid; however, if I get in a situation where I have to draw my concealed weapon from its holster under my shirt/jacket or out of my pocket, acquire my aggressor target and eliminate him/her in a quarter or half second, I'll be SOL. I just ain't that fast...no more.

Oldgringo,

Don't feel bad about those quarter second and half second draws. There are very few people alive who can do that. The posts discussing those times were talking about increments, not total time.

If you can draw, fire, and accurately place two shots in center mass at a target six feet away in 1.5 - 2.0 seconds, you're in the ballpark. With practice, that's very doable, even for those of us considerably over the half century mark.

Here's a short video that might help. Don't be confused about the demonstrator's discussion of a release lever - it applies only to the specific holster he's using.

[Liberty]

Don't feel bad about those quarter second and half second draws. There are very few people alive who can do that. The posts discussing those times were talking about increments, not total time.

If you can draw, fire, and accurately place two shots in center mass at a target six feet away in 1.5 - 2.0 seconds, you're in the ballpark. With practice, that's very doable, even for those of us considerably over the half century mark.

Here's a short video that might help. Don't be confused about the demonstrator's discussion of a release lever - it applies only to the specific holster he's using.

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