Confusion with too many rules

[zatoman]

Copied this statement from another thread: "The questions you would have to ask are who owns the tramway and who owns the land the tramway is operated on.

If the land is owned by the state, then the tramway cannot post 30.06 or 30.07 unless it falls under the exceptions in PC 46.03 and PC 46.035. If a private entity owns the land and operates the tramway, then they can post away."

Bottom line. Where carrying is allowed is often difficult to determine. Need to have an attorney on speed dial.

[cbunt1]

Just learned from another post that George Bush park in Houston (basically a flood control area controlled by the Corps of Engineers) is probably off limits to carrying. It's ironic that the largest shooting range in Houston is located in that park. I agree with the OP. WAY too many rules.

The range of which you speak is (or at least was) actually the largest outdoor range inside a city's limits in the United States, or so I'm told. The lease on that range has been in place for some 40+ years as I understand.

Admittedly the COE places some rather strict regulations around the use of the range, but nothing unreasonable, enforcement is practical, and they have been good partners to the club.

So yes, the irony is somewhat thick, and suggests that the basic prohibition around COE land, while unquestioned, can and could be modified in the same way as national park regulations have been.

[Rowyco1]

Here is one that confuses me. Went to AA Center today. Expected to see a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. Instead just saw the 30.07 sign for no open carry? Did they change the rules on CC at the AAC?

[ScottDLS]

Here is one that confuses me. Went to AA Center today. Expected to see a 30.06 and 30.07 sign. Instead just saw the 30.07 sign for no open carry? Did they change the rules on CC at the AAC?

I would consider that a victory since they've banned CC by policy even for non-prohibited events. Are they still preventing people from CCing there with wands? I know they are at AT&T Stadium in Arlington, because I just filed a complaint with the City Attorney.

Finally, AAC can not use 30.06/7 to prosecute you for carrying there because they are owned by the City of Dallas and therefore 30.06/7 does not apply. On the other hand, they will likely just keep doing what they've been doing by physically keeping you out.

[C-dub]

Just learned from another post that George Bush park in Houston (basically a flood control area controlled by the Corps of Engineers) is probably off limits to carrying. It's ironic that the largest shooting range in Houston is located in that park. I agree with the OP. WAY too many rules.

How does this even work? I thought it was patently illegal to even transport a firearm onto COE land even if it remains in the vehicle.

[DonFromTexas]

I came across another today, my wife works at a local food pantry as a volunteer. Today someone came in, open carry I believe. The person in charge called the police, and was told that since it is in a church, nobody can have a weapon (there are no signs posted). The police further pointed out that since churches have Sunday SCHOOL, that makes it a double no guns area. I thought we hashed out earlier that a church has to be posted to prohibit weapons, but are the police correct in saying that any church that has a Sunday School is a prohibited area?

[C-dub]

I came across another today, my wife works at a local food pantry as a volunteer. Today someone came in, open carry I believe. The person in charge called the police, and was told that since it is in a church, nobody can have a weapon (there are no signs posted). The police further pointed out that since churches have Sunday SCHOOL, that makes it a double no guns area. I thought we hashed out earlier that a church has to be posted to prohibit weapons, but are the police correct in saying that any church that has a Sunday School is a prohibited area?

That is incorrect. Another misinformed LEO that could cost someone a lot of money to prove and not cost the LEO a single thin dime.

[jmra]

I have worked daily with numerous officers over the last 7 years and have had conversations with all of them regarding licensed carry. Not a single one of them possessed what I would consider a working knowledge of licensed carry. Within the last week I have encountered two officers at our church who claimed that the new laws prohibited church carry of any kind and that any business desiring to post either 30.06 or 30.07 signs had to post both. They claimed they had received this in writing from DPS. I requested that they provide a copy of those directives. I've yet to see it.

[rotor]

I have worked daily with numerous officers over the last 7 years and have had conversations with all of them regarding licensed carry. Not a single one of them possessed what I would consider a working knowledge of licensed carry. Within the last week I have encountered two officers at our church who claimed that the new laws prohibited church carry of any kind and that any business desiring to post either 30.06 or 30.07 signs had to post both. They claimed they had received this in writing from DPS. I requested that they provide a copy of those directives. I've yet to see it.

The Texas Municipal League guide which apparently is used to teach many LEO still in the end summary shows that church and hospital carry is illegal without being posted. At least in the last issue I saw. Proof that the laws are confusing.

[thetexan]

It does feel a bit overwhelming at first. I remember the constant wondering about whether I was "OK" to carry.

This is oversimplifying, but frankly the places you can't carry are few enough to be an exception rather than the rule.

For most people, certain restaurants/bars, picking up the kids at school, going to the post office, and renewing the tags on your car are the most common "Maybe" questions.

Post Office is a no-go -- Federal Property
Car tags/title -- MAY be in a building that's off-limits (Lots of questions there) due to courtrooms or offices
Picking up the kids/grandkids at school -- Generally fine as long as you're staying in your car.
Restaurants: As long as it's not a 51% location, and it's not posted with 30.06 or 30.07, it's fine.

This is a GROSS oversimplification, but I find that it covers 80% of the "oh really? I can do that?" for the brand new carrier.

As always, this forum is a great resource for those questions.

Like so many other rules in any discipline it sometimes helps to draw these thing out in a diagram.

The way I teach it to my students is this...there are 13 places expressly enumerated where you cannot carry. (This does not deal with peace officers, active military, or security guards). Every where else is available to you!

Let me state it again...EVERY WHERE ELSE is available for you to carry!!!

EXCEPT...where proper notification is given according to 30.06 and 30.07!

So all you have to do is know the big 13 and understand 30.06 and 30.07. It is actually that simple. So when n doubt ask yourself if the place is on the list of 13 and if not...have you been PROPERLY (key word) notified? If not then CC or OC at will as appropriate.

tex

[DonFromTexas]

OK, someone posted that is is OK to carry in a church that is not posted. Easy to remember.
Then another poster posted this, which seems to me to be a total contradiction. What am I missing?

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing facility licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing facility administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

[Solaris]

OK, someone posted that is is OK to carry in a church that is not posted. Easy to remember.
Then another poster posted this, which seems to me to be a total contradiction. What am I missing?

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing facility licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing facility administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

You are missing :

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06 or 30.07.

[thetexan]

OK, someone posted that is is OK to carry in a church that is not posted. Easy to remember.
Then another poster posted this, which seems to me to be a total contradiction. What am I missing?

(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed or carried in a shoulder or belt holster, on or about the license holder’s person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a handgun is used in the event;
(3) on the premises of a correctional facility;
(4) on the premises of a hospital licensed under Chapter 241, Health and Safety Code, or on the premises of a nursing facility licensed under Chapter 242, Health and Safety Code, unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing facility administration, as appropriate;
(5) in an amusement park; or
(6) on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.

I think you must surmise that you cannot engage in the adventure of handgun carriage without being a subject matter expert on the topic. And the way you do that is to first read and study. Here is a tip for learning technical material. Start by reading the rules quickly over and over about 5 times. Don't try to understand any of it. Just read. By doing this you are programming your brain for familiarity with the words on the page.

Then study separate topics for comprehension. Diagram or draw what is being said until YOU see it and understand it. Above all do not rely on the forum or any conversation to educate you. Do that yourself, just you and the rules. Otherwise, you will be less than knowledgeable on this subject and will be a slave to the last person who told you anything.

The book is the great argument stopper. Know the book. When you need help to clarify something then ask but even then trust nothing but the book! Careful study on the subject of carrying in church would have easily revealed the facts and rumors or guesses by others wouldn't lead you into confusion.

KNOW THE BOOK. Then you will recognize counterfeit information when you hear it.

And yes, it's somewhat complicated. So is flying airliners and teaching pilots to do so. But that's the nature of learning your business of carrying firearms in Texas.

But we're glad to help. Start by careful and thorough study of the rules.

tex

[dlh]

Sadly, our firearms laws are getting too complicated. Soon they will be like the Internal Revenue Code. Enjoy that. "Except as hereinafter provided in subsection (H)3(j)2 and subject to the proviso contained in..."

Well, you get the point. Of course anti-gun bigots are quite happy with the confusing state of affairs---if they cannot have full confiscation of firearms then they will enjoy watching new laws, layer after layer, imposed on us poor folks trying to figure it all out.
dlh

[o b juan]

"You can carry in a church now." Jagos post

From 95' You could always carry i if you were not given Effective Consent " or notice

In the following locations
Church, Hospital, Nursing Home, Amusment park, Citycouncil, school board meeting