CHL holder pulls gun at Sears

[bdickens]

Ok- so here is my situation:
Its Thanksgiving night I'm in one of those black Friday lines at Sears in San Antonio when all of a sudden two guys directly behind me start going at it one guy gets knocked on the ground and while the other guy is on top of him he manages to pull his gun...At this point the store erupts into Chaos with people running out with merchandise, ladies screaming, people jumping over registers and behind isles. Well the guys stands up and has his firearm pointed at the guy who was beating him down and then starts looking around at everyone else not necessarily aiming his gun but moving it in a sweeping motion as if worried someone is gonna jump him from behind. At this point nobody knows this guys intentions or that he is licensed, only that he has a gun and he is not putting it down. He remains in this defensive stance for about 5 minutes just sweeping the room to make sure no one jumps him from behind. Finally the Police show up after about 10 minutes and after about 30 minutes everything returns to normal and they explain that he was a CHL holder and was within his right?? Let me tell you, if I had my CHL that day and I was carrying in the store that evening and this guy pulls a gun and is sweeping it around the room with young children all around and innocent people...he guts one right between the eyes.

My question is, in this situation this guy was cleared (After taking my CHL class I now know that I had the right to press assault charges since he swepped his gun towards me) of any wrong doing, but if I had taken action and shot the guy in order to stop the threat, would I have faced any charges here?

I'm gonna give you some friendly advice here.

First off, you - especially as a CHL - need to divest yourself of your macho attitude and learn to think with your brain instead of something else. Anyone with any sense at all will realize that the guy who is getting beaten up and who pulls his gun and doesn't start shooting is not the bad guy.

If you had decided to play hero, you would have ended up shooting the good guy. How would you like to have that on your conscience for the rest of your long, nightmare-riddled life? Your job here is to be the best witness you can be. You aren't the one being attacked and quite frankly, you really don't know what is really happening.

Secondly, you need to give up on the notion that you're gonna hit someone with a head shot in the midst of all that chaos and movement. You aren't. This ain't the movies and you ain't Wyatt Earp.

Third: stay away from that Black Friday nonsense.

[bdickens]

I guess I failed to mention this altercation happened just inside the entrance doors and were all in line for TV's- unless you were behind them in line you werent able to exit because the guy with the gun was standing there holding his gun up trying to make sure that he wasnt attacked from behind. We all went behind a register and the guy just kept looking at everyone with a blank stare

SLIGHTLY INCORRECT FACTS!!!! according to news reports.
I cannot find an on line news article addressing the possible muzzle sweep but I remember the TV new piece
specifically stating police asking about the CHL holder pointing the firearm at poeple and aggravated assault.

I watched it twice (DVR) because I'm a relatively new CHL holder (under one year) and wondered about an attack with fists against me and my legal right to draw my firearm. The CHL holder complained to a guy who cut in front of others in line. This was durring "Black Friday" before Christmas.
(I believe this was a mistake. I would not have liked someone cutting in line, but carry a firearm wuld have kept quite)

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/weird/NATL-M ... 86131.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/Man- ... 89101.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/Man ... 99761.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The "line cutter" hit the CHL holder in mouth, and the CHL drew his firearm.
Witnesses (according to the new report) said the CHL holder pointed his firearm at the ground and NOT
at people. Police investigated possible aggravated assault charges against the CHL holder.
SEVERAL witnesses said the CHL holder DID NOT muzzle sweep the crowd. ( I believe this is a key point)
Police let the CHL holder walk away.

My question is for Chas or other lawyers on the forums.

I of course never want to have to draw my sidearm.
I hope I go my whole life carrying it on my hip as a useless paper weight only used at the range.

But if I am ever physically attacked by someone without a weapon, can a CHL holder draw? Or expose a firearm without drawing?

My concern is I have a prosthetic hip and dupuytren’s disease in my hands.
Physically fighting back is limited being semi disabled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren's_contracture" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Under the above scenario, if I was hit kicked or otherwise attacked by someone without a weapon,
can I draw to stop the attack without pointing my firearm at the perpatrator.

I see the Zimmerman / Martin case and seeing the long drawn out case there
am thinking the judge knows Zimmerman will walk and is allowing time to pass
to avoid rioting. He certainly is not getting a speedy trial. He was attacked by a man without
a weapon but clearly was a life threatening situation. Does one have to wait until their head is bashed into the cement?

I'm not sure, but I believe the world's #1 murder weapon is the bare hand.

[texanjoker]

Nice - so two clowns get in a fight during black friday, and the looser is getting his rear handed to him so he pulls out a gun? Real smart.

[Moby]

Should we tolerate ALL rude behavior because we are armed?
Thoughts?
Anygunanywhere

I know what you mean and ALL rude behavior is a broad brush. But I agree with your intent. When I carry (that's almost everywhere everyday) it makes me watch speed limits more, my suroundings more, and I am definately (or would be) more careful about just what I got myself involved in. (haven't gotten involved in anything in years)

I read a story (maybe on this forum) about a guy being messed with on the road. The other driver in road rage WANTED the CHL carrier to pull over. His friend driving with him said "pull over, we'll take care of that $#%$#%" The CHL holder said "you don't understand, I'm carrying a firearm, I cannot lose! He could take my gun and shoot US"

I think about this from time to time. In my younger years I was unafraid and uncaring about what I said to who. But as an older, wiser man, with a CHL, I want to avoid and retreat if I need to. Because I CANNOT LOSE! I will not get shot with my own firearm. So that gives me two choices. avoid SITUATION THUS AVOID shooting, or shoot center mass. In the interest of my family's safety and my own...I'd rather avoid trouble.
It's easy to be macho...I have many times....it's a lot harder being macho from prison.

[ELB]

So the only way out was back through the entrance all the customers were coming in? No other way, no employee exit behind the counter? If true...never mind rowdy shoppers, what a fire trap, especially with Black Friday crowds. Yikes.

It might be a worthwhile exercise to evaluate every room or building you walk into as to "How do I (and my family) get out if something bad happens? It doesn't necessarily have to be a "normal" exit, it could be a window, or thru the drywall into the next room, or behind the counter and out through the stockroom or whatever. Lotsa reasons to want to be able to do this, like brawls, fires, Aurora-type mass murderers, flashmob shoplifters, etc.

If there's not another exit from a public place with lots of people in it, might want to consider whether it is a good idea to go in. Avoiding the "four stupids" doesn't just apply to bars and gas stations late at night...

[Jumping Frog]

Don't forget the three criteria that must be met before you can use deadly force - Opportunity, Intent, and Ability. (Some prefer the term Jeopardy instead of Intent.)

While I understand the intent of your post, I'd also like to point out that "three criteria that must be met before you can use deadly force" is not really accurate, and those criteria do not appear in Texas law.

The phrase that is actually used is "reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary". Now, there is substantial case law in numerous states where people have advanced the concepts you discuss to demonstrate their belief was reasonable.

So if you are using deadly force in circumstances where such use is not protected by being "presumed reasonable" (such as aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery), then one will need to be able to articulate reasonable reasons why one believed that deadly force was immediately necessary. Your criteria are a helpful tool for someone making that articulation, but they are not gospel.

However, there are other circumstances in the statutes that justify deadly force and do not require proving such "reasonable belief". So I would instead suggest that people become intimately familiar with the complexities and subtleties in PC §9.31 through PC §9.34, and PC §9.41 through PC §9.44 as listed in CHL-16.PDF.

Do a search and see how many individuals are killed by one blow.

About double the number of people killed by a so-called and misnamed "assault weapon".