Defending Your Property Line

[smoothoperator]

If they are ethical, decent people, they won't damage your property. If they do, get the wife or girlfriend to call the cops and hysterically report the big scary guys vandalizing her property.

[poppo]

I had an incident a few years ago. I live rural on about 50 acres and our property has an electric gate at the entrance. My wife was just getting home and she called me from the gate saying "Some guys in a truck say they need to check the electric poles by the house". She said the truck had no markings on it. I told her to tell them to wait up by the gate (about 800 feet away from the house). As she pulled up to the house, I saw the truck right behind her with 3 guys in it. I did not hesitate to strap on my OWB gun and went out to see what was going on. I told my wife to go in the house and call the electric company while I "investigated". The guys said they needed to check all of the poles (there are 3 inside the the gate). They did have some sort of paperwork, but that was it. I told them they should go start back up by the gate (which they promptly did). My wife came outside with the phone after they drove back up by the gate. She had the electric company on the line. They said that they indeed were checking poles. I proceeded to give them an earful about the guys not having a company truck, no uniforms, no ID badges, and following my wife in after she told them to wait. The lady apologized and said they contract the work out.

In any case, the bottom line is, if someone comes onto my property (that is gated) unannounceded, or after they were told to wait, I am not taking any chances. These guys could have been anyone.

BTW, I almost always open carry while I am out on my land, but not if I am expecting someone like UPS or FedEx (and left the gate open for them).

[MolonLabe]

Sorry guys,

I'm really at a loss in reading your comments. Where are all of the "come take it" people. Where are all the folks who can recite all the constitutional amendments? Did I miss it or has someone said you have the right to protect your property.

It is my property and I will go to great lengths to protect it.

Like it or not, I stopped them BEFORE any damage occurred.

With all due respect, may I suggest researching what the meaning and history of "Come and Take It" truly represents. It is an amazing part of history that can sometimes be referred to improperly. Not fully understanding it's meaning cheapens the context and principles of those that have upheld and fought bravely for "Come and Take It" in so many different ways.
Someone joked about a neighborhood party, but I wonder if you have ever considered speaking respectfully and politely to your neighbor about your concerns? Are they even aware of the issue? Because if you were ever confronted with a true "Come and Take It" situation, your neighbors might someday be the allies you will regret prematurely judging as the enemy.

[Jaguar]

I don't know how much of a problem it is in Texas where surveys are much more common when buying property, but here in California, a good many would be surprised to learn the property line they are so enthusiastically defending isn't where they think it is.

I've spent the last 40 years in title and real estate, in various roles. More than once I have handled a situation where a house was built, not merely across property lines but entirely on the wrong lot! I've dealt with swimming pools built on what turns out to be the neighbor's yard. In one case, a man sold ten lots over several years starting back in the 30's, each described by metes and bounds as 200 feet wide. When I got into it, someone had done a survey and discovered that from the north end of the northern most property to the south end of the southern most property was only 1800 feet! After untold thousands of dollars in surveying, lawyers fees, court fights etc., we finally got the neighborhood calmed down, each owning along the lines of possession, but none had 200 feet!

It is not asking too much for someone who has a need to access your property, wherever it is, to ask permission, and agree to restore it to the condition before entry, and most of the time this will be respected, honored and observed, and everyone lives happily ever after.

I worked for a surveyor in the '80s and we went to this high dollar development to do a lot survey for a sale. We found the lot, set the transit up on a corner, did a shot to the first corner, second corner, then when I turned it to the last corner there was a house about 3 feet over the property line. we quietly went to the second corner and got the shot to the last legal corner, did a shot to the corner of the house over the property line, and got out before anyone asked us any questions. Once back at the office, we drew up the plat with the corner of the house showing over the line, turned it over to the client, and mayhem ensued. We ended up back there three times showing the client, the encroach, and a lawyer where the property lines were.

Turned into a nightmare, but I left that line of work before it was ever resolved.

And yes, as surveyors we often trespassed on other people's land. We always tried to find a way around without getting on someone else's property, or ask permission first, but we often found no one home, or no house out in the boonies. And I have met the stare down type that just wants to intimidate other people, didn't care for them much.

[jimlongley]

A few years back, well, decades, I did a little "reconfiguration" of the side yard of my house, along with the back and front. The power company whose right of way ran right next to my property told me that I had "encroached" on the right of way. Proper measurement revealed that this was not so, but that I had indeed encroached on the town's drainage right of way. I called the town and they checked and said that what I had done was fine with them, as it actually had improved the drainage from the street to the storm drain, which was the general idea of what I did.

The following spring, the power company transformer adjacent to my house failed spectacularly, and initially the power company blamed me, but it was proved that the reason their transformer failed was because the drain, which ran from the base of the housing to the storm drain, had been inhabited by a family of voles, which had clogged the drain, resulting in the base of the housing flooding and thus the failure. It was also found, by an independent engineer (well somewhat independent anyway) that the surrounding terrain, all within the power company's ROW, had all been sculpted so that any surrounding ground water would head for the transformer, AND THEY WERE THE ONES THAT DID IT! when they installed the transformer to begin with.

The power company came in and put in a new drain, larger with a screen at the end to keep critters out, and trenched around the transformer so that any water flow would head for the storm drain.

In the process they parked their backhoe on my front lawn, dug into my property, well off their ROW, and tore up my side yard with their equipment, and then, despite my asking the crew to fix it, they just packed up and left.

IT GOT FIXED!!!

What happens when you mess with a telephone company technical support engineer with very close ties to the company ROW department, also where I obtained all of the relevant surveys and measurements. I had a lot of horsepower in those days, and could call up a deal more. The "independent engineer" above was a retired telco ROW and technical support engineer who had been a mentor of mine before he retired and went to work for the town I lived in as a consulting engineer.

And then there was the time GE built a power station over the top of a subscriber telephone cable, and ended up paying, because of me, a very pretty penny for the phone company to move the cable.

Right Of Way is private property and is almost sacred land.

BTW, in NY State, ROW is it's own access and crossing private property to reach it is verboten.

[alvins]

my father had a surveyor come out and show him exsactly where his propertly lines and easment was years ago. He only gets irritated if you cross onto his property. and he knows it down to the inch.lol

[mr surveyor]

after 30 years of practice as a professional land surveyor I have found the "off topic" part of this thread very entertaining

[Keith B]

Sorry guys,

I'm really at a loss in reading your comments. Where are all of the "come take it" people. Where are all the folks who can recite all the constitutional amendments? Did I miss it or has someone said you have the right to protect your property.

It is my property and I will go to great lengths to protect it.

Like it or not, I stopped them BEFORE any damage occurred.

I think you need to go back and read TPC 9.41 and 9.42 on use of force/deadly force to protect property and just what is justifiable. http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.41.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.42.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry chief. I don't follow url(s) on this board or any others.

I'm done on this thread.

Well, maybe you should. Interpreting the proper use of force or deadly force to protect property is a MUST understand if you intend to do it. Otherwise, you are going to be in major hot water.

[JALLEN]

I worked for a surveyor in the '80s and we went to this high dollar development to do a lot survey for a sale. We found the lot, set the transit up on a corner, did a shot to the first corner, second corner, then when I turned it to the last corner there was a house about 3 feet over the property line. we quietly went to the second corner and got the shot to the last legal corner, did a shot to the corner of the house over the property line, and got out before anyone asked us any questions. Once back at the office, we drew up the plat with the corner of the house showing over the line, turned it over to the client, and mayhem ensued. We ended up back there three times showing the client, the encroach, and a lawyer where the property lines were.

Turned into a nightmare, but I left that line of work before it was ever resolved.

Maybe they should have held a "garage sale!"

In California a survey is very seldom done upon sale of the property. At best, one of the real estate brokers wanders around in the bushes trying to imagine where the corners are, sometimes with disquieting results. Corner markers get moved, lost, imagined, the stuff of legend and folklore. Easements are often casually created, running through living rooms by the description... lots of work for us lawyers straightening this out.

[RPBrown]

Sorry guys,

I'm really at a loss in reading your comments. Where are all of the "come take it" people. Where are all the folks who can recite all the constitutional amendments? Did I miss it or has someone said you have the right to protect your property.

It is my property and I will go to great lengths to protect it.

Like it or not, I stopped them BEFORE any damage occurred.

I think you need to go back and read TPC 9.41 and 9.42 on use of force/deadly force to protect property and just what is justifiable. http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.41.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.42.00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sorry chief. I don't follow url(s) on this board or any others.

I'm done on this thread.

Well, maybe you should. Interpreting the proper use of force or deadly force to protect property is a MUST understand if you intend to do it. Otherwise, you are going to be in major hot water.

I agree Keith. But perhaps he needs to follow the advice given instead of just up and leaving the thread because we don't agree with him. This is exactly the type of thing that gets the anti's going. And you can bet there are a few of them that read this board for just this type of post. We may very well be reading about the OP in the news in the future. Just my .02

[dihappy]

I altered their behavior without saying a word.

To each there own, but I pride myself on my "verbal Judo." I think a simple, "Hey guys, whats going on?" with a follow up of "Ok, I see, well I'd prefer you not cut through my property, and if you do I am going to need your phone number so my wife can yell at you not me ."


Standing in ones yard and staring someone down instead of engaging them verbally may very well cause unintended escalation of the situation.

Anyhow...to each there own.

Agree, although everyone's got their own way of handling things, passive aggression isnt something id rely on when it comes to a situation like this. You may think you are sending one message and they are receiving another. Speaking directly to someone at least states clearly (more clearly) of your intentions, or rules regarding your property.

[VMI77]

Questions still remain. Why my yard? What happened to someone knocking on the door to let me know what was about to take place?

Since Mrs. Anygun and I purchased our retirement place we regularly request individuals remove themselves from our property. We have a stocked pond that we share with 2 neighbors, one of whom was the developer. Over the years it seems that the developer has informed everyone that it is OK to fish.

It did not take long for me to grow weary of picking up the trash, empty beer cans and water bottles, and track the ATV trackes over our 4.8 acres before I began to forbid trespassing.

I have never had to call the SO.

I have experienced some really stupid responses:

"I did not know someone owned this properety"

"I did not know you owned this property"

"I thought this was a park"

"My dogs just wanted to swim in the water"

"My grandsons wanted to fish. You don't mind do you?"

This is a small samle. I must admit that the numbers have dropped significantly. No one has ever knocked on my door to ask permission.

I am always armed on my place and I am always armed when I talk to someone. I am always polite and introduce myself while inquiring into who they are and what they are doing.

Anygunanywhere

Haven't seen anyone on our property, but it's fenced and the gate is usually locked, and it's pretty remote. I too am also always armed while out and about on my property....to deal snakes for one thing, though I haven't come across any for awhile now.

[fickman]

Where are all of the "come take it" people. Where are all the folks who can recite all the constitutional amendments? Did I miss it or has someone said you have the right to protect your property.

Your property was not under siege. If it is, those people will stand up and defend you.

The URL you wouldn't click on showed that you are only allowed to use deadly force to protect property at night with very narrow guidelines, including a reasonable expectation that the property cannot be recovered.

Texas Penal Code - Section 9.42. Deadly Force To Protect Property

Legal Research Home > Texas Laws > Penal Code > Texas Penal Code - Section 9.42. Deadly Force To Protect Property

§ 9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property: (1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41; and (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary: (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property; and (3) he reasonably believes that: (A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means; or (B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury. Acts 1973, 63rd Leg., p. 883, ch. 399, § 1, eff. Jan. 1, 1974. Amended by Acts 1993, 73rd Leg., ch. 900, § 1.01, eff. Sept. 1, 1994.

I know you've repeatedly said you weren't prepared to use deadly force unless you were backed into it, but in this case, it seemed like you were willing to be a participant in the escalation that could have lead to that need, which could remove your legal standing.

From the sounds of it, they weren't even breaching a fence line. . . but essentially preparing to cut a corner. Even if you don't allow it (which you don't have to), it's a matter for discussion and possibly law enforcement.

If you take every reasonable deescalation tactic possible (talk calmly and politely but firm, call the police if they insist on cutting your corner, etc.) and one of those guys drew a weapon on you, you could potentially have justification to act. That's an extremely unlikely outcome from the picture you painted.

I'm also not saying you were in the wrong to deny them access to your yard. Many here would've been willing to cooperate, but there's no obligation. Most likely the worst case would have been that they damage your property, refuse to pay, and you sue them in small claims court. A camera and a phone would be your best and most effective "weapons" in the scenario you described.

Please don't get defensive. You didn't get the reaction you anticipated, so maybe this was a place you had a blind spot. Embrace the feedback and move on. . . it ended up working out for you, so all we can do is break it down, analyze it, and learn any valuable lessons for the future.

Thanks for the interesting discussion; I found it worthwhile.

[Heartland Patriot]

Questions still remain. Why my yard? What happened to someone knocking on the door to let me know what was about to take place?

Since Mrs. Anygun and I purchased our retirement place we regularly request individuals remove themselves from our property. We have a stocked pond that we share with 2 neighbors, one of whom was the developer. Over the years it seems that the developer has informed everyone that it is OK to fish.

It did not take long for me to grow weary of picking up the trash, empty beer cans and water bottles, and track the ATV trackes over our 4.8 acres before I began to forbid trespassing.

I have never had to call the SO.

I have experienced some really stupid responses:

"I did not know someone owned this properety"

"I did not know you owned this property"

"I thought this was a park"

"My dogs just wanted to swim in the water"

"My grandsons wanted to fish. You don't mind do you?"

This is a small samle. I must admit that the numbers have dropped significantly. No one has ever knocked on my door to ask permission.

I am always armed on my place and I am always armed when I talk to someone. I am always polite and introduce myself while inquiring into who they are and what they are doing.

Anygunanywhere

Haven't seen anyone on our property, but it's fenced and the gate is usually locked, and it's pretty remote. I too am also always armed while out and about on my property....to deal snakes for one thing, though I haven't come across any for awhile now.

Isn't there an old saying that says something like "Good fences make for good neighbors"? Kind of hard to cross accidentally onto property THROUGH a fence. I want a slightly rural property and I have already told my wife it will be fenced and posted "No Trespassing". That way, it will be clearer to those who might have a question about whether they can or cannot come onto my property.

[gdanaher]

The OP leaves the impression that he is a 'hothead'. Neighbors help each other out from time to time, and that might include access to an adjoining property to get a job done--deliver a large object or trim a tree. He went into the house, collected a gun and brought it out to the garage to have it closer and more handy. All this becasue some guys were trying to do work at the neighbor's house.