Restaurant Robbers

[Pete92FS]

Every time I enter a room, I take stock of everyone there and try my best to "make" or identify other fellow CHL carriers (who might come to my aid). .

Vests and Hawaiin shirts?

[Purplehood]

Every time I enter a room, I take stock of everyone there and try my best to "make" or identify other fellow CHL carriers (who might come to my aid). .

Vests and Hawaiin shirts?

I agree with the sentiment of checking out the room, but trying to ID other CHL'ers? Does that mean you plan on counting on their aid?

[Oldgringo]

My wife makes fun of me for doing so, but I always try to sit with my back to the wall and next to an exit. Every time I enter a room, I take stock of everyone there and try my best to "make" or identify other fellow CHL carriers (who might come to my aid). I also make a mental note of any possible perps (young guys with hoodies on a TX summer day).

In this situation, I would not try to guess whether they're "peaceful" robbers or if they'll kill someone. My wife would make a beeline for the door (she's good at that) and I'll run behind the metal door post and start shooting from that cover. Most of the young "homies" have never been to the range to practice. They are poor shots. A few are crack shots just back from Iraq (our government has been desperate for recruits, so they have been "overlooking" some criminal records). I would shoot the most confident one (best shot) or leader first. I'll save the ones who are sitting next to other CHL carriers to be shot last (they might come to my aid, but as I've read on this forum, probably not). Once one of them go down, the others will flee. Thugs are lazy. If they weren't lazy, they'd be gainfully employed, right? Shooting it out for a cash register till is hard work. Trust me, they'll flee. Faced with combat stress, people will either freeze, fight, or flee. The fighter is probably the leader, that's why he gets shot first. The ones who freeze with a gun in their hand will be shot next. Thugs who flee will be spared. So, although it seems like you're fighting enormous odds, with the proper tactical mindset, you're only fighting ONE perp. In a group of 6 perps, only the leader will probably fight, but the others will either flee or freeze. If your family is safely out the door and you have cover behind a metal door post, then you could effectively defeat a group of 6 perps.

Some poster mentioned that he was afraid that he'll accidentally hit another diner. In such a situation, most diners will be underneath their tables. Firing head shots at the only people standing upright, the perps, will place the shots far enough away from the diners so that even if you miss, you won't hit a diner.

I am a big chicken and I am not a brave man, HOWEVER sometimes a MAN has to do what a MAN has to do. A real man would defend the innocent against thugs. Plus, if they're in the open waving guns around and you have cover, YOU have the tactical advantage even though you are seemingly outnumbered (seemingly outnumbered because only the leader is the fighter in most thug gangs, so you're only fighting one person).

I once knew an elderly Chinese man who held back THOUSANDS of armed Japanese with just a musket (not even a gun!). The Japanese have a rule that they cannot allow enemy soldiers to be left alive behind their lines, so this Chinese gentleman and his buddy were going to fire a shot from old muskets then hide. While the Japanese were looking for them, their families will evacuate their village and hide in the mountains. His buddy chickened out but he fired a shot and hid. It took the Japanese hours to find his buddy and kill him (ironic, huh?). Thinking they found their shooter, they stopped looking for the shooter and left the Chinese man in hiding. Meanwhile in the hours that they took to find and kill his buddy, his village was able to run and hide in the mountains. He saved his entire family and all his neighbors. If my elderly Chinese friend can fight off thousands of armed Japanese with an antique musket, YOU might be surprised to find yourself able to fend off 6 measly "homies" !



P.S. Other villages did not do so good. The Japanese used babies instead of clay pigeons for target practice in neighboring towns. In the other thread about an armed restaurant holdup in Arizona, the thugs killed a restaurant employee for sport. Do YOU want to bet that they'll only take "stuff" and not shoot you or your family for sport? I'd rather bet that if I shoot the leader, the rest will either freeze or flee. Putting yourself at the mercy of thugs never ends well.

Interesting. I don't really know what I'd do in this situation. I guess I'll have to wait and see while praying that I never have to find out.

[Dragonfighter]

Sounds good. And it may work out like that. But I wouldn't count on it.
Gang members shoot at members of rival gangs frequently.
One issue police have now is that it is the "homies" who have more experience under fire than the cops.
Also, most gang members know a fellow gang member who's been shot. Most of the don't die. And many are not afraid of being shot.

I would argue to the contrary. I can't tell you how many big bad, gang bangers I've seen cry like babies with as little as a .25 in the thigh.

To the fellow whose wife thinks he's crazy, I feel for you brother. Mine will pick out a good (relative to the environment) table and save me the best FOF position at the table. We never discussed it, she just does it. I am blessed, and married way out of my league.

Added in Edit: As I thought about this, another factor occurred to me. As others have pointed out good SA is critical. But in the Waffle House scenario in particular, good SA would place you in a situation that as they came in (remember guns are already out) cause a traffic jam at the door. Nail the first one through and keep stacking 'em up until you run out of bad guys or bullets. When ever I am out somewhere, no one comes in without the once over.

[drjoker]

Of course, for almost all of us, all this is just armchairism because most of us have never experienced shooting it out with 6 armed thugs before. We can say what we'll do, but we really don't know how we'll react if it happens for real. For all I know, I could just freeze, wet my pants, or run. It's never happened to me before, so who knows what I'll really do?

However, I will try my best to help defend the innocent from murder at the hands of armed thugs.

[Purplehood]

When ever I am out somewhere, no one comes in without the once over.

I would probably starve to death if in a restaurant trying to once-over all the customers.

[Excaliber]

Sounds good. And it may work out like that. But I wouldn't count on it.
Gang members shoot at members of rival gangs frequently.
One issue police have now is that it is the "homies" who have more experience under fire than the cops.
Also, most gang members know a fellow gang member who's been shot. Most of the don't die. And many are not afraid of being shot.

I would argue to the contrary. I can't tell you how many big bad, gang bangers I've seen cry like babies with as little as a .25 in the thigh.

To the fellow whose wife thinks he's crazy, I feel for you brother. Mine will pick out a good (relative to the environment) table and save me the best FOF position at the table. We never discussed it, she just does it. I am blessed, and married way out of my league.

Added in Edit: As I thought about this, another factor occurred to me. As others have pointed out good SA is critical. But in the Waffle House scenario in particular, good SA would place you in a situation that as they came in (remember guns are already out) cause a traffic jam at the door. Nail the first one through and keep stacking 'em up until you run out of bad guys or bullets. When ever I am out somewhere, no one comes in without the once over.

If an engagement is necessary, the "fatal funnel" of the entry door is probably the most advantageous location for it if you can position yourself to act before they enter the main area and you can do so without endangering innocent patrons.

If my table is close enough to the door that I could be immediately seen by a bandit upon entering, particularly in fast food or breakfast house environments. I also give the once-over to everyone who comes in. It doesn't take a lot of effort or time once it becomes a habit, so it doesn't interfere with my meal.

If I'm in a more remote section, I rely on being able to sense a sudden change in the level of conversation and mood among the other patrons to let me know something I may need to know about is going on.

[Purplehood]

I will probably die with a pork-chop in my mouth.

[Shorts]

Keith wrote:

...I will not sit at any restuarant without facing the door. My wife thinks im nuts...

You too?

Me three. I sit facing the door and/or my carry side to the wall. I like to take a good seating position along the perimeter.



As far as the OP and contending with 6 armed guys, I can't say what we'd do. Both my husband and I carry and I think our reactions would come down to the situation at hand. We can't play hero and fail miserably, putting ourselves in harm's way as well as the other patrons. But we're not going to be brow beat if we do see a good chance and opening.

I think it would only take stopping one or two of those guys before they scatter. And if one is taken into custody it wouldn't be too long before the rest of the gang was caught. With this in mind, getting one guy alone and the others with their attention elsewhere and far enough away (and hopefully a counter, wall, pillar or tables between), that would be the opening I'd look for.

[Excaliber]

I will probably die with a pork-chop in my mouth.

If you stick to restaurants that sell pork chops, the pork chops are much more likely to get you than armed bandits.

On the other hand, if you go to places that sell Big Macs or fried chicken to go, it could go either way....

[mr.72]

This is a scary situation and one of those with no good answer. Even if I was having lunch with my pals on the way back from a day at the firing range, knowing good and well that I had a table full of armed and practiced CHL holders with the nerve to do something besides hide and whimper, I still think this is very dicey at best.

The table full of GG-CHLs in glock caps, even if one-for-one even numbers with the BGs, are still at a major disadvantage because we all have to draw and we also have to be concerned about hitting innocents in the cross fire. Considering panicked restaurant patrons are going to be unpredictable in their movement and reaction when the loud noises start, this is a very, very iffy situation and pretty much guarantees someone besides the BGs are going to be shot. Once the popping starts, the BGs are all going to turn towards the source of the noise and return fire. Someone's going to get hit.

So the question is, do me and my pistol-packin-pals draw and fire on the BGs and almost guarantee that someone besides the BGs gets shot (hopefully not by us), maybe even one or more of us gets shot, or do we sit on our hands and play the odds that the BGs are not really planning on shooting anyone and maybe everyone leaves with their wallets and phones gone but otherwise uninjured besides their pride?

[Oldgringo]

This is a scary situation and one of those with no good answer. Even if I was having lunch with my pals on the way back from a day at the firing range, knowing good and well that I had a table full of armed and practiced CHL holders with the nerve to do something besides hide and whimper, I still think this is very dicey at best.

The table full of GG-CHLs in glock caps, even if one-for-one even numbers with the BGs, are still at a major disadvantage because we all have to draw and we also have to be concerned about hitting innocents in the cross fire. Considering panicked restaurant patrons are going to be unpredictable in their movement and reaction when the loud noises start, this is a very, very iffy situation and pretty much guarantees someone besides the BGs are going to be shot. Once the popping starts, the BGs are all going to turn towards the source of the noise and return fire. Someone's going to get hit.

So the question is, do me and my pistol-packin-pals draw and fire on the BGs and almost guarantee that someone besides the BGs gets shot (hopefully not by us), maybe even one or more of us gets shot, or do we sit on our hands and play the odds that the BGs are not really planning on shooting anyone and maybe everyone leaves with their wallets and phones gone but otherwise uninjured besides their pride?

As I, and others, opined earlier; "you just never know"...until it happens.

[Shorts]

Well yes, "you never know" until it happens. But the simple discussion opens up a thought process many might have never considered. Its probably much more pleasant a surprise on an internet forum than in real life

[Dragonfighter]

Well yes, "you never know" until it happens. But the simple discussion opens up a thought process many might have never considered. Its probably much more pleasant a surprise on an internet forum than in real life

I don't think that the value of running through "what if" scenarios can be over estimated. In fact I would posit that regularly running through these scenarios is a form of "training" and I believe, that if actually faced with the unthinkable, you would revert to your "training" including range work and tactical "imaginings".

[Excaliber]

Well yes, "you never know" until it happens. But the simple discussion opens up a thought process many might have never considered. Its probably much more pleasant a surprise on an internet forum than in real life

I don't think that the value of running through "what if" scenarios can be over estimated. In fact I would posit that regularly running through these scenarios is a form of "training" and I believe, that if actually faced with the unthinkable, you would revert to your "training" including range work and tactical "imaginings".

This is true for hard wired biological reasons. When your heart rate escalates sharply under life threatening stress, your ability to think creatively goes sharply downhill and your brain searches for "preprogrammed" responses. If it finds some, it executes them. If it doesn't, your heart rate skyrockets further and you become even less capable of getting yourself out of whatever you've gotten into.

Thinking about things beforehand is planning, not training. Tactics have to be physically exercised and repeated to bring them to the point of reliable usability when you need them most.