Church Carry

[foodawg]

Wow! I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the "church" phrase.

I'm fairly sure in my class, the instructor said you could not carry in church. I check with a couple of guys that I took the class with and they are under that impression as well.

Thanks for you clarification on this.

Just to verify I understand it correctly, you can carry in church as long as a 30.06 isn't posted. Correct?

[Keith B]

Wow! I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the "church" phrase.

I'm fairly sure in my class, the instructor said you could not carry in church. I check with a couple of guys that I took the class with and they are under that impression as well.

Thanks for you clarification on this.

Just to verify I understand it correctly, you can carry in church as long as a 30.06 isn't posted. Correct?

Yes, unless you have been given verbal or written notification in the form of 30.06 not to.

[milkcartonkid]

I am not sure why i am having such a hard time getting my head around this topic: It is clearly stated that it is a crime to carry a weapon to church with your CHL. Yet it is apparently done. Alot. So even though its printed as a No-No, unless there is a 30.06 its not prohibited?
apologies for my newbness but i just dont get it. Would someone please "black and white" this for me? Thanks in advance.

[phoneguy]

I am not sure why i am having such a hard time getting my head around this topic: It is clearly stated that it is a crime to carry a weapon to church with your CHL. Yet it is apparently done. Alot. So even though its printed as a No-No, unless there is a 30.06 its not prohibited?
apologies for my newbness but i just dont get it. Would someone please "black and white" this for me? Thanks in advance.

Here's the way I read it, and why it's confusing.

1. Origional concealed carry law says NO to church carry.

2. After further consideration, legislature has a change of heart on issue.

3. Since the Texas legislature only meets for 6 months every two years (unless called into special session by Guv), time is short to get things done.

4. So, instead of re-writing the entire section of the law, leg makes addednum to existing law, now stating that church carry is illegal, if posted IAW 30.06.

Legal scholars, please feel free to beat me about the head and neck if I'm not reading this correctly.

Personally, I feel this "defense to prosecution" is like the travelling law, (you can beat the rap, but not the ride), should an overzealous anti-2nd ammendment DA get froggy about the issue, and should be changed to make it clearly legal, as the travelling law was changed. Personally, I would like the law to be like Alaska, carry almost anywhere, anytime, no liscense required, but that ain't happ'nin anytime soon.

[seamusTX]

Phoneguy, you are essentially correct. The relevant law is PC §46.035(i).

However, this is not like the old traveling presumption. This is an exception, which means that the prohibition in PC §46.035(b)(6) does not apply unless notice has been given.

The other major difference from car carry is that churches are private property, and police have little reason to go there at all (unless called) or to frisk worshippers.

- Jim
[Edited to correct typos]

[Keith B]

I am not sure why i am having such a hard time getting my head around this topic: It is clearly stated that it is a crime to carry a weapon to church with your CHL. Yet it is apparently done. Alot. So even though its printed as a No-No, unless there is a 30.06 its not prohibited?
apologies for my newbness but i just dont get it. Would someone please "black and white" this for me? Thanks in advance.

Read the statute again, but continue reading and make sure to read section (i). basically, instead of totally rewriting the statute, they took a shortcut and just added that verbiage to update the old restriction.

[The Annoyed Man]

I am not sure why i am having such a hard time getting my head around this topic: It is clearly stated that it is a crime to carry a weapon to church with your CHL. Yet it is apparently done. Alot. So even though its printed as a No-No, unless there is a 30.06 its not prohibited?
apologies for my newbness but i just dont get it. Would someone please "black and white" this for me? Thanks in advance.

I had trouble with this one too, but I'll distill what I posted on the first page, near the top, for you (see the 3 sections highlighted in red, I've used the forum software to apply the list headings)...

• § 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.
  1. A license holder commits an offense if the license holder ...intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
  2. A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
     under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:
     1. ...on the premises of a business that ...derives 51 percent or more of its
        income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption...
     2. ...on the premises where a high school, collegiate, or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking place...
     3. ...on the premises of a correctional facility...
     4. ...on the premises of a hospital... nursing home...unless the license holder has written authorization of the hospital or nursing home administration, as appropriate...
     5. ...in an amusement park... or
     6. on the premises of a church, synagogue, or other established place of religious worship.
  3. A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun... ...at any meeting of a governmental entity.
  4. A license holder commits an offense if, while intoxicated, the license holder carries a handgun...
  5. A license holder who is licensed as a security officer... ...and employed as a security officer commits an offense if, while in the course and scope of the security officer's employment, the security officer violates a provision of...
  6. In this section:
     1. "Amusement park" means...
     2. "License holder" means...
     3. "Premises" means...
  7. An offense under Subsection (a), (b), (c), (d), or (e) is a Class A misdemeanor...
  8. It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that...
     Text of subsection as added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1214, § 2
     • (h-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections (b) and (c) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, was:
       1. (1) an active judicial officer, as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code; or
       2. (2) a bailiff designated by the active judicial officer and engaged in escorting the officer.
     Text of subsection as added by Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1222, § 5
     • (h-1) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsections
       (b)(1), (2), and (4)-(6), and (c) that at the time of the commission
       of the offense, the actor was:
       1. a judge or justice of a federal court;
       2. an active judicial officer, as defined by Section 411.201, Government Code; or
       3. a district attorney, assistant district attorney, criminal district attorney, assistant criminal district attorney, county attorney, or assistant county attorney.
  9. Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.
  10. Subsections (a) and (b)(1) do not apply to a historical reenactment performed in compliance with the rules of the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission.
  Added by Acts 1995, 74th Leg., ch. 229, § 4, eff. Sept. 1, 1995.
  Amended by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, § 10.04, eff. Sept. 1, 1997; Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 1261, § 26, 27, eff. Sept. 1, 1997; Acts 2001, 77th Leg., ch. 1420, § 14.833, eff. Sept. 1, 2001.
  
  Amended by:
  Acts 2005, 79th Leg., Ch. 976, § 3, eff. September 1, 2005.
  Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1214, § 2, eff. June 15, 2007.
  Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 1222, § 5, eff. June 15, 2007.

So, Section (b)(6) says that church carry is illegal for CHLs, but then Section (i) says that (b)(6) does not apply if the CHL holder was not given effective notice under 30.06. Therefore, for church carry to be illegal for CHL holders, the church (or synagogue of place of worship) must have a 30.06 sign posted.

I hope that helps.

[jimlongley]

I was carrying even as I was baptised last year, and my church premesis is posted with a blue TABC sign.

http://www.narrowtrail.org/

Go to photos, baptisms, and select my name.

100 beer signs and a cross.

[The Annoyed Man]

TSRA has a webpage that shows in a chart format where you can and can't carry. It seems to simplify things a bit.

[NcongruNt]

except when I'm on stage with the band. Then I just leave it in the car 'cause it's too much hassle.

Oi!

I suppose I should explain a little more? First, my guitar strap rides right across where my gun would normally be, so it would not work out well for me. Second, we use individual Aviom mixer boxes with ear pieces for each of the musicians, and before the rehearsals and services, I have a stage hand running a wire from the ear buds, down the inside back of my shirt, and out under my belt. There is no way that person would not see A) my pistol, and B) my magazine holders, and my CHL status would be blown. That's what I mean by too much hassle. So on those Sundays that I am playing with the band, I secure my weapon in the car before bringing my gear inside and setting up. If there were a simple and practical way for me to carry on stage, I would. On the Sundays that I don't play, I'm packin' in church.

My particular church has about 1200 members, so my guess is that there are probably at least a few other CHLs in the congregation.

May I suggest the 5.11 holster shirt? I bought one somewhat recently and have found it to be a good way to carry when dressed up. The gun rides underneath your weak side arm in a similar location to a shoulder holster and can be worn underneath your shirt. I've found that it reasonably conceals even my full-size Hi-Power underneath just a dress shirt. The shirt itself conceals the gun, and it seems to me that a smaller, thinner pistol like the UCII perhaps would not be noticeable even with your dress shirt off for the brief time it takes to get a mic set up. They are relatively inexpensive (I paid $40 for mine) and come in both black and white.

Here is a link to the product page on the 5.11 site:

http://511tactical.com/511-holster-shirt-40011.html

I have also posted a review with pictures included and others have chimed in with their experiences in this thread:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_F ... 13&t=15033

[camjr]

I will be carrying a S&W642 in a Mika round cut pocket holster. I received the plastic last week, so this will be the first time. No 30.06 signs at my church.

Cheers!

[milkcartonkid]

Thank all for clarifying for me! I was just sitting here thinking...there is no way everyone would break the law but once i started looking at the Penal code, i got vertigo and needed help.
Great Group in here.

[getusumtx]

I had some issues with this subject as well. My CHL instructor said carrying in a church/amusement part is illegal. After reading the whole section, it turns out you can.Is rule new? I guess this goes to show you have to read that book cover to cover twice to figure some things out..

[Keith B]

I had some issues with this subject as well. My CHL instructor said carrying in a church/amusement part is illegal. After reading the whole section, it turns out you can.Is rule new? I guess this goes to show you have to read that book cover to cover twice to figure some things out..

Nope, not real new rule. Addition is maybe a couple of years old now IIRC.

[NcongruNt]

I was carrying even as I was baptised last year, and my church premesis is posted with a blue TABC sign.

http://www.narrowtrail.org/

Go to photos, baptisms, and select my name.

100 beer signs and a cross.

Is it pocket carried or a thigh holster? At least that's what it looks like to me...

Still concealed, no printing, no indication that it's a gun.