OCTC President and Wife Arrested

[gljjt]

Very well said Mr. Heath.

I agree too!

[jmoney]

In the end it really doesn't matter if the arrest was lawful or not, the antis have their anti-gun news piece to attack Open Carry specifically and gun rights in general. If you are going to be an advocate for something and your in a leadership position relating to it then you have to focus strictly on that subject. Allowing yourself to get sidetracked or try to combine it with something else has a great chance of damaging your efforts.

Lets look at OC leadership in Texas and see what is happening:

CJ Grisham (OCT): Convicted, and appealing his case relating to the arrest relating to the open carry of an AR15 (charge was relating to the interference with a police officers duties). OCed in Oklahoma in apparent violation of Oklahoma law, claims he may or may not have a license, the gun may or may not have been real.

Cory Watkins (OCTC): As noted above he was recently arrested for interfering with a traffic stop, he was open carrying a replica black powder revolver when arrested.

Murdoch Pizgatti (CATI): Not his legal name, operates under this alias for reasons known to himself and friends. Not much is known outside of the fact he is also a founder of DontComply.com and is in a leadership role there as well. Come And Take it as well as DontComply.com are closely linked. He has been arrested on weapons related charges, the validity and status/disposition of which is unknown at this time.

Pastor Terry Holcom (Texas Carry): Aside from a strong dislike (hate may be more like it) of the NRA and TSRA he appears to be the most reasonable choice for someone in a leadership role in the Open Carry movement. He was arrested at the capital in Austin, the charges were later dropped.

If you will notice there is a pattern regarding people in leadership positions within the OC movement, there are a few people I have not mentioned but you get the point. Leaders need to be above the arrests, they need to quit doing things that could get them arrested, and most importantly they need to lead from somewhere outside of a jail cell or court room.

Or they need to get arrested/convicted of a felony and their ability to hurt the RKBA is extinguished. I think this is more about their narcissistic personality than their belief in the cause.

I agree. I seriously doubt that these charges will be dropped. It will be interesting to see what their video looks like, if it looks anything like the dash cam video, they are probably in trouble.

[drjoker]

EDIT: I did not notice the first time I watched the video that he was open carrying. I thought that he was just making videos. Never mind, that's really stupid. Officer @ traffic stop can't see what this joker is doing with a loaded weapon behind his back so additional officers had to be called in. Waste of taxpayer's resources!

[ShootDontTalk]

I find it extremely disappointing that many regulars on this forum simply cannot resist judging people with whom they disagree without a moment of court time or a shred of evidence being presented. It is often stated here that, in effect, being arrested for something equates to being found guilty of something. I regularly read some post here that as a CHL you may not be convicted for doing anything illegal, but "you may not avoid the ride." On this forum, it seems to me, that is all the proof that is needed.

Despite whether any of us like someone or agree with their activities, they deserve a fair day in court before a jury of their peers - something all of you would demand were you in their shoes. And basing any supposition of guilt or innocence on an obviously edited video (which will never be allowed to be admitted into evidence as is) released to the media by a PD on the night of an event, is a foolhardy endeavor IMHO. Once again, I think I will reserve judgement until all the facts are in and the jury speaks - or not. Same as I hope you would do for me.

[jmra]

I find it extremely disappointing that many regulars on this forum simply cannot resist judging people with whom they disagree without a moment of court time or a shred of evidence being presented. It is often stated here that, in effect, being arrested for something equates to being found guilty of something. I regularly read some post here that as a CHL you may not be convicted for doing anything illegal, but "you may not avoid the ride." On this forum, it seems to me, that is all the proof that is needed.

Despite whether any of us like someone or agree with their activities, they deserve a fair day in court before a jury of their peers - something all of you would demand were you in their shoes. And basing any supposition of guilt or innocence on an obviously edited video (which will never be allowed to be admitted into evidence as is) released to the media by a PD on the night of an event, is a foolhardy endeavor IMHO. Once again, I think I will reserve judgement until all the facts are in and the jury speaks - or not. Same as I hope you would do for me.

Whether he's guilty or innocent doesn't change the fact that he is an idiot doing severe damage to the cause he claims to champion.

[gljjt]

I find it extremely disappointing that many regulars on this forum simply cannot resist judging people with whom they disagree without a moment of court time or a shred of evidence being presented. It is often stated here that, in effect, being arrested for something equates to being found guilty of something. I regularly read some post here that as a CHL you may not be convicted for doing anything illegal, but "you may not avoid the ride." On this forum, it seems to me, that is all the proof that is needed.

Despite whether any of us like someone or agree with their activities, they deserve a fair day in court before a jury of their peers - something all of you would demand were you in their shoes. And basing any supposition of guilt or innocence on an obviously edited video (which will never be allowed to be admitted into evidence as is) released to the media by a PD on the night of an event, is a foolhardy endeavor IMHO. Once again, I think I will reserve judgement until all the facts are in and the jury speaks - or not. Same as I hope you would do for me.

Yes they deserve their fair day in court for resolution of their guilt or innocence.

My judgement is not a legal one. They are hurting the progress for restoration of 2nd amendment rights. I don't need a court to find them guilty of anything before I jump on them for their crummy tactics. Two separate issues.

1. Their legal problems currently in the justice system.
2. Their lunatic tactics causing problems in the court of public opinion for those wanting the steady progress of the last 20 years in the legislature to continue.

I am entitled to my opinion regardless of their legal woes. If they are found innocent of all charges, they and their tactics are still an impediment to real progress.

[ShootDontTalk]

Then perhaps you won't mind my adjusting the headline:

OCTC President and Wife....Are Terminally Stupid for Bad Political Tactics

I don't doubt the sincerity of your claims, but seriously, read through this thread and see what it sounds like. Nothing personal intended here. Is the subject here their tactics, or their arrest?

[gljjt]

Then perhaps you won't mind my adjusting the headline:

OCTC President and Wife....Are Terminally Stupid for Bad Political Tactics

I don't doubt the sincerity of your claims, but seriously, read through this thread and see what it sounds like. Nothing personal intended here. Is the subject here their tactics, or their arrest?

My comments are not intended to be personal either. I guess per the thread title, the subject is their arrest. However, the natural progression leads to their tactics.

I honestly hope they get a fair shake in the justice system. I don't know all the details, but it appears to me they interfered with a legitimate police activity. Regardless of the outcome, in my opinion, the publicity surrounding their tactics and arrest have hurt the cause they proclaim to support.

[Keith B]

Their tactics lead to the arrest. Right or wrong, they have a history with Arlington PD. That history is not a friendly relationship. When you use in your face tactics such as theirs for either open carry or videoing the police, you are perceived as an instigator. If the relationship had been a good one, the arrest might not have been carried out because the police might have been more willing to issue a warning and have them back away. But, due to their confrontational tactics, the past history and the attitude displayed in the dash cam video shown in the news clip, the easiest thing for the police to do to shut it down is to enact an arrest if they step over the line just enough and get them out of their faces.

[G.A. Heath]

I find it extremely disappointing that many regulars on this forum simply cannot resist judging people with whom they disagree without a moment of court time or a shred of evidence being presented. It is often stated here that, in effect, being arrested for something equates to being found guilty of something. I regularly read some post here that as a CHL you may not be convicted for doing anything illegal, but "you may not avoid the ride." On this forum, it seems to me, that is all the proof that is needed.

Despite whether any of us like someone or agree with their activities, they deserve a fair day in court before a jury of their peers - something all of you would demand were you in their shoes. And basing any supposition of guilt or innocence on an obviously edited video (which will never be allowed to be admitted into evidence as is) released to the media by a PD on the night of an event, is a foolhardy endeavor IMHO. Once again, I think I will reserve judgement until all the facts are in and the jury speaks - or not. Same as I hope you would do for me.

I'm not judging anyone, but I am noticing that people in LEADERSHIP positions are placing themselves into situations that can, and do, result in bad PR for the efforts to advance Open Carry. The truly amazing thing is that these situations are not isolated incidents, but seem to be repeat occurrences. All this does is give fuel to the opposition and cost us political capital. The arrests of people in leadership positions are symptoms of a problem in the open carry movement, they themselves are not the problem.

I recently interviewed an attorney for my podcast relating to a case he won as well as a legal service he is part of. The case was that of Michael Keoughan from CATI-Midland/Odessa and the arrest was in Andrews Texas. The interview was primarily for the legal service he is a part of, however we did discuss that case a little. The point of the matter is that that people in leadership positions in the Open Carry movement should be AVOIDING situations that can lead to an arrest, not placing themselves into those situations with alarming frequency.

I have never said anyone was guilty, nor have any of the posts I have read here done so. To accuse those on this forum of finding guilt before trial simply because of someone's position on an issue is rather hypocritical and insulting.

[EEllis]

Then perhaps you won't mind my adjusting the headline:

OCTC President and Wife....Are Terminally Stupid for Bad Political Tactics

I don't doubt the sincerity of your claims, but seriously, read through this thread and see what it sounds like. Nothing personal intended here. Is the subject here their tactics, or their arrest?

Well in this case their tactics led to their arrest. They don't observe they take part in police stops. They yell, distract, insult the police, give horrible advice to people being stopped without knowing what's going on, and they believe that because they have a camera, or phone, in their hands that they no longer have to obey lawful orders from police. If you constantly push the limits, and I'm sure even they will agree that is what they are trying to do, then of course they will end up helping to define the limits in court. The law isn't some obvious black line that everyone can agree on. When you get right on the border it's a gray fuzzy area that means different things to different people. It's an average of what a number of jurors believe, so to speak. They seem to only consider their own opinions and ignore anything that contradicts their personal viewpoint and personally look so amateurish and ignorant that it should embarrass all pro gun people.

[TresHuevos]

Passion can be a powerful tool and it certainly appears like the OCT crew has plenty. It just seems to me that they aren't able to temper the passion with common sense. I've never been to an OCT meeting but they must come up with a series of bad ideas that are never countered by someone saying "Ya know, maybe there's a smarter way of getting what we want."

[Charles L. Cotton]

Then perhaps you won't mind my adjusting the headline:

OCTC President and Wife....Are Terminally Stupid for Bad Political Tactics

I don't doubt the sincerity of your claims, but seriously, read through this thread and see what it sounds like. Nothing personal intended here. Is the subject here their tactics, or their arrest?

Well in this case their tactics led to their arrest. They don't observe they take part in police stops. They yell, distract, insult the police, give horrible advice to people being stopped without knowing what's going on, and they believe that because they have a camera, or phone, in their hands that they no longer have to obey lawful orders from police. If you constantly push the limits, and I'm sure even they will agree that is what they are trying to do, then of course they will end up helping to define the limits in court. The law isn't some obvious black line that everyone can agree on. When you get right on the border it's a gray fuzzy area that means different things to different people. It's an average of what a number of jurors believe, so to speak. They seem to only consider their own opinions and ignore anything that contradicts their personal viewpoint and personally look so amateurish and ignorant that it should embarrass all pro gun people.

Exactly right. You can't divorce the arrest from the tactics.

Chas.

[Keith B]

OCTC and its leaders seem to live by the law of the instrument; that is 'When you give a small boy a hammer, he will find that everything he encounters needs pounding.'

They believe what they are doing is legal, and if challenged they think it needs to be pounded into submission. Unfortunately there are some nails out there that will not be driven home or will bend when too much force is used. If they would just use small taps to drive it into the wood, it might take a little longer, but they would find a lot less bent nails and fewer smashed thumbs.

[ShootDontTalk]

I agree about the bad tactics. No question. My comment is that the assumption here is that they did something that deserved arrest. Would it be logical then to assume that no PD has ever made a bad arrest? Ever? That conclusion could be disproven if more video of the incident is released. Or is that simply not possible?

Remember the fellow in the wheelchair who was declared worthy of being shot to death for charging a DPD officer? Seems a lot of people ended up with egg on their faces and one or two ended up in prison when all the facts (and video) came out. Not suggesting that happened here, but then I haven't seen all of the video yet. So I will wait to assume that what they did caused the arrest.