Rights and Duties while under Citizens Arrest?

[Thane]

This brings up an interesting situation we've had lately. Neighborhood punks have been partying in the vacant house next door. We've chased them off four or five times now, and have resorted to calling the police, and having them escort the teenagers home (and I'm assuming, ticketing the parents). The landowner is also not happy about these kids trashing the place, as he's trying to sell it, and (I think), has started pressing criminal trespass charges.

Needless to say, the punks are less than thrilled.

Last Monday, I came outside to find my windshield smashed. I've no idea which punk did it, as they took off and I didn't see the actual incident. However, this brings me to my question:

If I see someone committing such an act of vandalism against my property, am I justified in detaining them by force? To further complicate the question, here's two more details:
I park in the street, as the driveway already has a car, and
The punks in question are most probably minors.

Thanks in advance!

Thane.

[txinvestigator]

This brings up an interesting situation we've had lately. Neighborhood punks have been partying in the vacant house next door. We've chased them off four or five times now, and have resorted to calling the police, and having them escort the teenagers home (and I'm assuming, ticketing the parents). The landowner is also not happy about these kids trashing the place, as he's trying to sell it, and (I think), has started pressing criminal trespass charges.

Needless to say, the punks are less than thrilled.

Last Monday, I came outside to find my windshield smashed. I've no idea which punk did it, as they took off and I didn't see the actual incident. However, this brings me to my question:

If I see someone committing such an act of vandalism against my property, am I justified in detaining them by force? To further complicate the question, here's two more details:
I park in the street, as the driveway already has a car, and
The punks in question are most probably minors.

Thanks in advance!

Thane.

This is so fraught with potential problems for you I hesitate to answer.

I am going to say you should probably go ahead and consult an attorney, both to establish any justification you may have and the restrictions, and to prepare for after-the-fact.

[seamusTX]

This is so fraught with potential problems for you I hesitate to answer.

Ditto that.

The legal conseqences and cost of trying to arrest someone or using force to prevent criminal mischief in the nighttime (though legally justified) is probably more than a windshield.

You also have to think about escalated retribution. The families and friends of these young thugs often lack good judgment.

It occurs to me that a fence around the vacant lot might solve the whole problem. The property owner might be convinced that he is maintaining a public nuisance.

Lights and cameras might help, too. The cameras don't need to be real. You can buy fake security cameras.

- Jim

[stevie_d_64]

It's probably time to point out that the original post wasn't asking our authority to effect a citizen's arrest, but rather what duty we have to comply if someone is trying to effect a citizen's arrest against us.

And to some up: if you're innocent, and a non-LEO citizen is trying to use deadly force or threat of deadly force to arrest you, then they're trying to kidnap you, and you are clear to resist the same way you would any other kidnapping.

If they assault you, you can legally resist the same way you would any other assault.

Kevin

That would push the boundaries of aggravated kidnapping wouldn't it??? If a weapon is involved and used against you to intimidate, coerce you into submission...

I find it amazing how quickly people become incited to react when someone disrespects you and uses foul language to illicite a response, whatever that may be, either directly with a verbal response, or just a look these days...

The very basis for "Starrs" conflict resolution we have all seen in our CHL classes preaches difusing an act of conflict is the knowledge (at least my interpretation) is that you certainly have the ability to decisively end the conflict...So do everything you can to not escalate or incite the other person(s) to continue...

So knowing that, if someone believe they should place you under citizen arrest (I thought Texas didn't have this provision, and like "Txi", this is not a very common occurance), you should comply to the point of trying to determine if it is warranted...

But pretty much by that time other lawful authority should be present, hopefully, and their evaluation and authority should be given full weight...

Interesting discussion so far!

[seamusTX]

So knowing that, if someone believe they should place you under citizen arrest ..., you should comply to the point of trying to determine if it is warranted...

But pretty much by that time other lawful authority should be present, hopefully, and their evaluation and authority should be given full weight...

I think it depends very much on the circumstances. Walking away solves a lot of problems, but sometimes it can lead to escalation.

I just want to add that most people who try to perform citizen arrest are not justifed. To be blunt, they are cranks.

- Jim

[txinvestigator]

This is so fraught with potential problems for you I hesitate to answer.

Ditto that.

The legal conseqences and cost of trying to arrest someone or using force to prevent criminal mischief in the nighttime (though legally justified) is probably more than a windshield.

A point of clarification. According to the Penal code, force is justified when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property. Force may be used to prevent criminal mischief ANYTIME. Deadly Force is only justified during the nighttime.

[stevie_d_64]

This brings up an interesting situation we've had lately. Neighborhood punks have been partying in the vacant house next door. We've chased them off four or five times now, and have resorted to calling the police, and having them escort the teenagers home (and I'm assuming, ticketing the parents). The landowner is also not happy about these kids trashing the place, as he's trying to sell it, and (I think), has started pressing criminal trespass charges.

Needless to say, the punks are less than thrilled.

Last Monday, I came outside to find my windshield smashed. I've no idea which punk did it, as they took off and I didn't see the actual incident. However, this brings me to my question:

If I see someone committing such an act of vandalism against my property, am I justified in detaining them by force? To further complicate the question, here's two more details:
I park in the street, as the driveway already has a car, and
The punks in question are most probably minors.

Thanks in advance!

Thane.

This is so fraught with potential problems for you I hesitate to answer.

I am going to say you should probably go ahead and consult an attorney, both to establish any justification you may have and the restrictions, and to prepare for after-the-fact.

I would add that "Thane's" interest in this issue begins and ends at their property line...

But whos to say that if they had not said anything at all, or not called the police that the criminal mischief performed upon his property would not have happened...

The more we excuse, ignore, and do not actively confront behavior like this the more it permiates and extends to areas where it does directly effect us...

We are certainly not police or lawful authority, nor is it our job to perform anywhere near that capacity, I think thats what "Txi" was referring to...And I believe that as well...

We almost know where any affirmative action we take against someone we witness performing a mischievious act on ours, or some nieghbors property would proceed, in the court of public opinion...That is sadly the case in our society now...We've seen it too many times...

There isn't a single person on this forum who I really believe would pull their gun out and detain or threaten the use of deadly force upon someone in this regard, as a first reaction to such an act...We are too smart...We'll exhaust all means, and then some, before we do something like that...But we are always ready and prepared to meet a greater threat if it escalated to that...

The question you may have to ask yourself is, do you think any action you take verbally, physically, pre-emptive or not, to address issues like this is truely escalating a situation??? And your responsibility for anothers reaction???

Sorry if I went off-topic, but this looks like the direction some folks want to go with the discussion...Maybe we could split this one off on another thread...

[KD5NRH]

Lights and cameras might help, too. The cameras don't need to be real. You can buy fake security cameras.

Just grab a shoebox and write "CAMERA" on it with a sharpie.

Ever notice that the fake cameras are never even remotely similar to the real ones a given store carries?

For less than that windshield cost you, you can get a camera and simple DVR setup that will record to SD cards. (1GB cards are often available for $20) Most of them loop, so you don't have to worry about changing tapes, and most of them are motion-sensing, so you won't waste hours of recording space watching the grass grow.

If you know within 4-6hrs when it is likely to happen, or don't mind swapping tapes that often, you could just use a $30-40 camera and a VCR from the pawnshop. For about $100-150, some places may have a camera and controller combo that will give you limited motion-sensing capability. (nothing like the pre-loop setup with digital, though, which can show you a preset amount of what was happening before the motion sensing circuit was tripped)

Here's a nice one for the computer that's still cheaper than a windshield:
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product. ... id=5295975

I don't see the SD-based one on their website, but my local WalMart has it for $150-200 without any SD cards. Check your WalMart, and especially any electronics or spy-supply stores.

[seamusTX]

The question you may have to ask yourself is, do you think any action you take verbally, physically, pre-emptive or not, to address issues like this is truely escalating a situation??? And your responsibility for anothers reaction???

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this question.

If a bunch of teenagers want to play loud music next to your house and throw beer cans around, and you ignore them, they will most likely be happy to continue.

If you do something to stop them, they will be unhappy about it, and possibly retaliate. Of course that is legally and morally wrong, but it can happen.

I just think you need to find the course of action that is least costly overall and most effective.

When we first moved into our current house, we had a lot of trouble with theft. Even our trash cans were stolen. We put up a security fence with locking gates and put burglar bars on the garage. Problem solved. I think the local thugs realized we were serious about security and turned to easier pickings.

- Jim

[Thane]

Gaah.

I was tired when I wrote that post, and I guess my words got garbled in transmission from brain to keyboard. And now I'm not sure what the question I was trying to ask even was... only that it wasn't what I actually asked.

Yeah, I know using deadly force over a windshield is A Bad Idea, and I wouldn't do it. Apologies if I gave the opposite impression. Yeah, I'd try detaining the punks if I caught them at it again, but not by force or deadly force (force of anger, force of personality, maybe... ). If they took off running, they'd not be stopped.

It's late right now, and I'm too tired to even begin figuring out what the question I wanted to ask was; I don't wanna ask another question that I'll look at tomorrow and say, "Where'd THAT come from?"

Thanks for the ideas about the cameras/fake cameras, although believe it or not, some of them are more expensive than the windshield (which was $150).

[BrassMonkey]

An example of "Breach of Peace" is a repo man entering a closed garage or home to reposses your vehicle. This applies whether there is a right to reposses or not.

This is simply one example of Breach of Peace as an example was requested. There are 4 or 5 others just for repossesions as well. I think yelilng fire in a movie theatre counts too. Not sure on that one.

[stevie_d_64]

The question you may have to ask yourself is, do you think any action you take verbally, physically, pre-emptive or not, to address issues like this is truely escalating a situation??? And your responsibility for anothers reaction???

I'm not sure where you're trying to go with this question.

If a bunch of teenagers want to play loud music next to your house and throw beer cans around, and you ignore them, they will most likely be happy to continue.

If you do something to stop them, they will be unhappy about it, and possibly retaliate. Of course that is legally and morally wrong, but it can happen.

I just think you need to find the course of action that is least costly overall and most effective.

When we first moved into our current house, we had a lot of trouble with theft. Even our trash cans were stolen. We put up a security fence with locking gates and put burglar bars on the garage. Problem solved. I think the local thugs realized we were serious about security and turned to easier pickings.

- Jim

"Hey Jim...Turn down that music please...It is very loud and it is disturbing us...Thanks"

"Hey Steve, shove it!"

(not that I ever believe we would have a dissagreement like this... )

This is what I meant...

Most of the time I think kids would listen and comply with a reasonable request like this...It used to be that way when I was growing up...If we were doing somethign stupid and annoying, and an adult or nieghbor took issue with it, we cooled off...Sure we cussed about it a little, but we never took it beyond that...

Today, it is a totally different world, kids are indoctrinated to question and disrespect people who make reasonable approaches like this...Some are not this way, and will not be a problem...But some are...

What I meant was the slightest word, or look in the direction of someone who is basically doing something that is disturbing the peace, or causing an annoyance near you, or even something maliciously destructive or illegal, is a risk some people are not willing to interject their sensible reasoning into...

[seamusTX]

What I meant was the slightest word, or look in the direction of someone who is basically doing something that is disturbing the peace, or causing an annoyance near you, or even something maliciously destructive or illegal, is a risk some people are not willing to interject their sensible reasoning into...

I agree. A more extreme example is a guy in Galveston who told drug dealers to go somewhere else, and they tried to burn down his business.

It's a risk, but if law-abiding people don't take it, the thugs will completely take over.

You just have to figure out the best way to do it.

- Jim

[BrassMonkey]

WOW,
My name says senior member already. I think that makes me special... :-)

[CHL/LEO]

BrassMonkey - where are you getting your definitions of Breach of Peace?