Moral vs Ethical carry on 30.06

[EEllis]

If I have a business and post a sign prohibiting some behavior or activity then I would hope people would respect it and my rights enough not to do whatever it is on my property. So it seems a no brainier to me that if I know a business doesn't want chl's carrying then regardless of legality I wont. I have yet to find a business that I have to go into. I also don't see giving my money to someone with a posted business either so morally I have two reasons not to go into someplace I know doesn't want guns.

[RottenApple]

If I have a business and post a sign prohibiting some behavior or activity then I would hope people would respect it and my rights enough not to do whatever it is on my property. So it seems a no brainier to me that if I know a business doesn't want chl's carrying then regardless of legality I wont. I have yet to find a business that I have to go into. I also don't see giving my money to someone with a posted business either so morally I have two reasons not to go into someplace I know doesn't want guns.

I do not see any moral obligation to obey an invalid and not legally binding sign. YMMV

[TexasGal]

Business have a right to say if someone can carry there. If a 30.06 sign is posted, I just respect that and carry elsewhere to spend my money. If it is a gun buster sign or something else that is no where near a legal 30.06, then I carry past it well concealed.

[The_Busy_Mom]

I happened upon this sign today. I just went on through the gate. I had tobacco products too!

[ Image ]

I noticed the word 'campus' in the sign. Is this a public/private/open-enrollment school?

TBM

[EEllis]

If I have a business and post a sign prohibiting some behavior or activity then I would hope people would respect it and my rights enough not to do whatever it is on my property. So it seems a no brainier to me that if I know a business doesn't want chl's carrying then regardless of legality I wont. I have yet to find a business that I have to go into. I also don't see giving my money to someone with a posted business either so morally I have two reasons not to go into someplace I know doesn't want guns.

I do not see any moral obligation to obey an invalid and not legally binding sign. YMMV

I don't care what the prohibition is, barring certain unlawful request I believe a business has the right to request people on their premises follow the house rules. It's not about being arrested but about having respect for others even when I don't agree with them. The fact that I can legally get away with ignoring their wishes is of little importance to me. Then there is still the fact that if I am so upset about their prohibition giving them my money just seems absurd.

[Wes]

How do you know what their wishes are? Just because they have a gun buster sign or another non valid anti guns sign, that does not mean they do not want a chl holder in their business. My local gun range says no loaded guns, but that does not mean they don't want chl holders to enter. Cash Americapawn posts an invalid 30.06 sign and knows it does not impact chl holders, intentionally so. If a business does not want a chl holder in there store then they will take the two minutes to search and find out how to properly stop them. Otherwise, if its invalid, I'm coming in. If its valid, I'll take my business elsewhere.

[RottenApple]

I don't care what the prohibition is, barring certain unlawful request I believe a business has the right to request people on their premises follow the house rules. It's not about being arrested but about having respect for others even when I don't agree with them. The fact that I can legally get away with ignoring their wishes is of little importance to me. Then there is still the fact that if I am so upset about their prohibition giving them my money just seems absurd.

Don't fool yourself. Everything you buy has some ties to and provides monetary support for an anti and their goals. And yes, I do mean everything. It may be the store you bought the widget in, the manufacturer of the widget, a manufacturer of a component of the widget, or even the trucking company used to transport the widget (or its components) from one location to another. Why, every trucking company, with the exception (maybe) of some owner/operators, has a "no weapons/firearms" policy for their drivers.

And has already been stated in numerous threads, without valid 30.06 notification, you have NO idea what the intentions are behind that gun buster sign. Perhaps it's an insurance requirement (doubtful, but I have read of at least one case), perhaps they are just making their more hoplophobic clients feel better, or maybe they were just too any/stupid to find out how to legally ban concealed firearms from their business. The fact is that we CAN'T know that they really want to prohibit firearms unless they post a valid sign.

[MeMelYup]

I think your missing the point on the 30.06 sign. The other day a poster to this forum posted a letter he received from a safety office when he asked about their 30.06 sign. It stated that it was undersized on purpose, to appease some of the anti-gun people and it was known that it was not enforceable.

[EEllis]

How do you know what their wishes are? Just because they have a gun buster sign or another non valid anti guns sign, that does not mean they do not want a chl holder in their business. My local gun range says no loaded guns, but that does not mean they don't want chl holders to enter. Cash Americapawn posts an invalid 30.06 sign and knows it does not impact chl holders, intentionally so. If a business does not want a chl holder in there store then they will take the two minutes to search and find out how to properly stop them. Otherwise, if its invalid, I'm coming in. If its valid, I'll take my business elsewhere.

I can see your point. It sure looks like at least one business has a invalid 30.06 sign not because they don't want chl's to carry but to just make sure they stay concealed. So while that's not where I would draw the line I can understand, tho I will carry if I go to Cash America now, why you do so. What about a business who you are 100% sure wants no guns, no chl's, but just made some small mistake in wording or had what was a legaly valid sign but never got updated. Still carry?

[tomtexan]

I happened upon this sign today. I just went on through the gate. I had tobacco products too!

[ Image ]

I noticed the word 'campus' in the sign. Is this a public/private/open-enrollment school?

TBM

This was a rehab type facility with a religious tone to it. I don't know if I could really classify it as a school of any kind.

[RottenApple]

I can see your point. It sure looks like at least one business has a invalid 30.06 sign not because they don't want chl's to carry but to just make sure they stay concealed. So while that's not where I would draw the line I can understand, tho I will carry if I go to Cash America now, why you do so. What about a business who you are 100% sure wants no guns, no chl's, but just made some small mistake in wording or had what was a legaly valid sign but never got updated. Still carry?

The only way you can be 100% sure that they want to ban firearms from the business is if the sign is a valid 30.06.

[EEllis]

I can see your point. It sure looks like at least one business has a invalid 30.06 sign not because they don't want chl's to carry but to just make sure they stay concealed. So while that's not where I would draw the line I can understand, tho I will carry if I go to Cash America now, why you do so. What about a business who you are 100% sure wants no guns, no chl's, but just made some small mistake in wording or had what was a legaly valid sign but never got updated. Still carry?

The only way you can be 100% sure that they want to ban firearms from the business is if the sign is a valid 30.06.

Oh I understand your point. Unless someone is going to throw you in jail you're going to do it. But then again the question wasn't for you.

[RoyGBiv]

If the sign is invalid I carry.
If the sign is valid I go elsewhere whenever possible.

I respect the rights of property owners to refuse my business. No ill will about it whatsoever. I just shake my head and vote with my feet.

I do on occasion take the opportunity to point out the fallacy to the owners of posted establishments. I feel it's my civic duty.

[cb1000rider]

To the OP: Frankly, I disagree. We don't know why the owner/manager chose to put up a "no gun" sign. Perhaps their insurance required it, perhaps they just want to make their gun-fearing clientele feel safer, perhaps they trebly want to ban guns from their store and are too incompetent/lazy to look up the legal requirements to do so. Do you know why? I certainly don't. The ONLY way to know for sure, with 100% certainty, that the owner/manager does not want (for whatever reason) concealed handguns in their establishment is for them to post a correct and valid 30.06 sign.

I agree with your thoughts about why. I don't agree that it justifies ignoring the signs. Why not?

If insurance required it:
The owner can lose his/her insurance if the rules aren't being followed. Sure, it doesn't mean that ownership agrees, but you're not going to get an owner that says you can ignore the requirements of his insurer...

If they want to make gun-fearing clientele feel safer:
Then the owner doesn't want your gun there. Period. As much as you'd like people to respect your right to bear arms, maybe we should respect the desires of private property owners?

too incompetent/lazy to look up the legal requirements:
I think this is most likely. Again, to me it screams "intent" - and although it doesn't follow the letter of the law, it's not my business and I'd want people to respect my rules if I was the business owner.


I own German Shepherds. The only difference is that there isn't a specific signage requirement for keeping my dogs out of your place of business. For instance, I know of several campgrounds that ban German Shepherds and post those rules. I know of a specific campground where they ban German Shepherd's not because they don't like or don't trust the breed, but because it's a requirement of their insurer to do so. In that case, I know the owner has no issue personally, but I don't want to put his insurance at risk... And if you're found with a Shepherd, you will be asked to leave - those are the posted rules... The "why" of the rules doesn't matter. Why not respect the intent of property owners?