CHL holder pulls gun at Sears

[stroo]

1. If you don't know, don't shoot.
2. This guy appeared to be doing what all the self defence teachers teach. After the assailant is stopped, scan for other threats. He may not have been using good muzzle discipline, but that is what he was doing. And as I read your statements here, you recognized that whether implicitly or explicitly.

Shooting here would have been a big mistake for you.

[fickman]

1. If you don't know, don't shoot.
2. This guy appeared to be doing what all the self defence teachers teach. After the assailant is stopped, scan for other threats. He may not have been using good muzzle discipline, but that is what he was doing. And as I read your statements here, you recognized that whether implicitly or explicitly.

Shooting here would have been a big mistake for you.

Either scram or take cover and - draw your firearm or at LEAST have the grip in hand ready to go. I don't think drawing yours discreetly is out of the question with another gun already being displayed. . . but there's no need or benefit from presenting it to the guy who is beyond red alert, in full fight-or-flight mode, and likely scared out of his wits.

You might even call out, "We saw what happened, the police are on the way" to try to ease his nerves a little.

[TrueFlog]

Don't forget the three criteria that must be met before you can use deadly force - Opportunity, Intent, and Ability. (Some prefer the term Jeopardy instead of Intent.) Unless you can positively identify all three elements, you can't fire. As you described the scenario, this guy clearly had the Opportunity (lots of people around) and the Ability (a handgun). However, I see no evidence that he had Intent. Did he verbally threaten anyone? Did he point the gun at any one specific person (other than his sparring partner)? Did he order anyone to get down or take any other action? Remember that the burden is on you to establish that he has Intent. If all you can say is "Maybe" or "I don't know that he doesn't have Intent", then don't intervene.
http://www.useofforce.us/3aojp/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.corneredcat.com/article/lega ... -jeopardy/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[rvsullivan]

One last comment. In reading about this episode, Sears actually gave the CHL holder a gift certificate for what he did!
They seemed to not have a problem with his actions.

[knotquiteawake]

One last comment. In reading about this episode, Sears actually gave the CHL holder a gift certificate for what he did!
They seemed to not have a problem with his actions.

Where did you read that?

[Birdie]

One last comment. In reading about this episode, Sears actually gave the CHL holder a gift certificate for what he did!
They seemed to not have a problem with his actions.

Where did you read that?

http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/Man ... 99761.html

[knotquiteawake]

According to the report, the gun had a single bullet in the chamber. Officers emptied the gun and handed it back to its owner after he showed officers his concealed carry permit.
The mother of the man who allegedly pushed his way to the front of the line said the man with the gun had instigated the scuffle. She told officers he had been rude while standing near them in line ever since 6 a.m.
Police said the store manager gave the man with the gun a voucher and asked him to leave.

Lol, well I would be quite interested to see what would have happened if he had multiple bullets in the chamber!
Voucher isn't quite the same as a giftcard but at least the store didn't seem to be terribly offended by it.

[Moby]

I guess I failed to mention this altercation happened just inside the entrance doors and were all in line for TV's- unless you were behind them in line you werent able to exit because the guy with the gun was standing there holding his gun up trying to make sure that he wasnt attacked from behind. We all went behind a register and the guy just kept looking at everyone with a blank stare

SLIGHTLY INCORRECT FACTS!!!! according to news reports.
I cannot find an on line news article addressing the possible muzzle sweep but I remember the TV new piece
specifically stating police asking about the CHL holder pointing the firearm at poeple and aggravated assault.

I watched it twice (DVR) because I'm a relatively new CHL holder (under one year) and wondered about an attack with fists against me and my legal right to draw my firearm. The CHL holder complained to a guy who cut in front of others in line. This was durring "Black Friday" before Christmas.
(I believe this was a mistake. I would not have liked someone cutting in line, but carry a firearm wuld have kept quite)

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/weird/NATL-M ... 86131.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.kbtx.com/home/headlines/Man- ... 89101.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.khou.com/news/texas-news/Man ... 99761.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The "line cutter" hit the CHL holder in mouth, and the CHL drew his firearm.
Witnesses (according to the new report) said the CHL holder pointed his firearm at the ground and NOT
at people. Police investigated possible aggravated assault charges against the CHL holder.
SEVERAL witnesses said the CHL holder DID NOT muzzle sweep the crowd. ( I believe this is a key point)
Police let the CHL holder walk away.

My question is for Chas or other lawyers on the forums.

I of course never want to have to draw my sidearm.
I hope I go my whole life carrying it on my hip as a useless paper weight only used at the range.

But if I am ever physically attacked by someone without a weapon, can a CHL holder draw? Or expose a firearm without drawing?

My concern is I have a prosthetic hip and dupuytren’s disease in my hands.
Physically fighting back is limited being semi disabled.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupuytren's_contracture" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Under the above scenario, if I was hit kicked or otherwise attacked by someone without a weapon,
can I draw to stop the attack without pointing my firearm at the perpatrator.

I see the Zimmerman / Martin case and seeing the long drawn out case there
am thinking the judge knows Zimmerman will walk and is allowing time to pass
to avoid rioting. He certainly is not getting a speedy trial. He was attacked by a man without
a weapon but clearly was a life threatening situation. Does one have to wait until their head is bashed into the cement?

[anygunanywhere]

I am not a lawyer, I do not play one on TV or movies, I did not sleep at a Holiday Inn last night, and this is worth what you pay for it.

I am 5' 11", 215 lbs of teddy bear. I have a titanium plate in left leg, right shoulder implant, bad back, and more. I am 58 years young.

I have been in my share of scapes. The last one was over 38 years ago 5 days before I got married. BTW today is our 38th anniversary! A marine and I did not see eye to eye on what he was doing at the time.

If anyone assaults me even with fists I am going to defend myself with a firearm.

Do a search and see how bany individuals are killed by one blow.

Anygunanywhere

[Bitterclinger]

This case was the main reason I decided to get my CHL. I agree with a previous poster who said being armed would have prevented him from confronting the jerk in the first place. On reflection, being armed would prevent me from going anywhere near anything called "Black Friday," but that's just me.

For me, whether or not this guy was within his rights was immaterial. What got got my attention was the fact that he walked because he had a CHL. I'm not sure why I never thought about this before; maybe it was just the hometown effect since this happened here. I found myself thinking, even if I were in a completely bona fide situation that demanded the presentation of deadly force, at best, I would probably be in for a short visit to the Bexar County cooler. I'm sure my liberal interpretation of the 2nd amendment would have little bearing on the matter at that point, and I'd probably make some FBI list of suspicious miscreants to be given an extra helping of scrutiny.

...but, I wonder if I'd still get a voucher?

[anygunanywhere]

Should we tolerate ALL rude behavior because we are armed?

Thoughts?

Anygunanywhere

[Matt78665]

I was not there so I could not say 100% how I would react. But, I would put distance from scene with my wife protected. I would at the very least put my hand on my Glock........but distance is my friend

[Gameover]

Should we tolerate ALL rude behavior because we are armed?

Thoughts?

Anygunanywhere

I don't tolerate anything more or less when carrying or not. I've not changed a single thing about how I talk to people since obtaining my chl. I believe everyone should be respectful to all and if I feel the need to speak on a matter I'm not one to bite my tounge.

[gigag04]

Let me tell you, if I had my CHL that day and I was carrying in the store that evening and this guy pulls a gun and is sweeping it around the room with young children all around and innocent people...he guts one right between the eyes.

I don't know you so I am reading with a grain of,salt, but I'm always suspect of comments like "he gets one between the eyes." Whenever a self defense encounter reads like an action book script or uses wording like that, it makes it seem kind of far fetched. But you asked for thoughts, so here we go:

That scanning tactic is taught by many LE agencies and tac schools. You may have easily found yourself engaging an off duty cop.

Also - why do you pick one of the smallest areas of the body for the target?

In a situation like that when you clearly don't have all the info, I would recommend moving you and your family to cover, and seeing how it plays out. It doesn't sound as exciting but will keep you and yours safer, and out of court.

I shot a cop (with sims) in a training course years ago because I misread the situation and tried to be a hero. The reality of that situation still freaks me out.

[Dragonfighter]

<SNIP>

I shot a cop (with sims) in a training course years ago because I misread the situation and tried to be a hero. The reality of that situation still freaks me out.

Oof!

When we were training for urban (door to door which was way out of my normal function in combat) we were taught "look for the gun and not for the target". This was taught after Viet Nam because of the internal conflict, sometimes deadly, soldiers had about shooting young people. Even so it was interesting to see delays and then after effects of firing on the photo cut outs of a 12 y.o. (looking) holding an AK.

Ours were simply unarmed vs. armed, nothing like what you did. It was still nerve wracking to shoot an unarmed cutout. I wish the state of the art was what it is now in 1979.