Hospitals and CHLs

[Charles L. Cotton]

I'm curious, what is the status of a hospital that doesn't have a valid sign, but is a teaching hospital?

I'm referring to Texoma Medical Center in Sherman / Denison. Their sign is clearly nowhere near 30.06:

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However, they teach student nurses from Grayson County College there.

Could it also be construed as a school and therefore off limits? Is there any case law on this?

Most hospitals of any size are so-called "teaching hospitals" because they have residents/fellows treating patients. However, this does not make them a "school" so they are not statutorily off-limits. In Houston, M.D. Anderson Cancer Center is off-limits even without a TPC §30.06 sign because the facility itself is owned by the University of Texas, as is UTMB in Galveston.

Chas.

[Jumping Frog]

In Houston, M.D. Anderson Cancer Center is off-limits even without a TPC §30.06 sign because the facility itself is owned by the University of Texas, as is UTMB in Galveston.

Another good reason for "campus carry" to pass.

[tacticool]

After the last session brought the truth about campus carry into the daylight, I reached the conclusion that politicians who oppose campus carry are evil. There's no excuse anymore that they don't know the truth. They know the truth and they intentionally choose to side with the rapists and robbers against decent people trying to better themselves with an education.

[chasfm11]

After the last session brought the truth about campus carry into the daylight, I reached the conclusion that politicians who oppose campus carry are evil. There's no excuse anymore that they don't know the truth. They know the truth and they intentionally choose to side with the rapists and robbers against decent people trying to better themselves with an education.

Not exactly, at least from what I've seen.

There is an educational administrative mindset. The D ED candidates must get it infused before that degree is granted. They treat whatever entity that they control (classroom, college, university) as their own private fiefdom to rule as they see fit. They are in complete control. How dare the State legislature of Texas tell them that they have to allow students with guns on campus. They spout the "I'm just concerned about the students" line but as you point out, they know the kids can be in danger and most of them obfuscate any crime statistics that hint of an increase in criminal activity on their campus.

I'm an ex-teacher and I dealt with that mindset regularly. But I'm always amazed by it. Let me give you a very recent example.

I rode my bike across the back of an elementary school which happens to connect to our Town's bike trails. A man signaled to me and I rode over to find out what he wanted. He introduced himself as "Dr. XXXX", the principal of the school. He wanted to know what I was doing. When I told him cardio exercise on the bike trail, he launched into a 3 minute diatribe about how I was doing it all wrong and that I was better off doing interval training. So he had known me for less than 30 seconds and he knew what was best for me, even though I've been doing my program for over 5 years and have consulted trained exercise professionals. He could have said "I'm not comfortable with you on school grounds during the day" but he knew that he had no legal leg to stand on with that argument so he provided critique about my exercise approach and sent me off someplace else to execute his new strategy for me. He is in control of the school property, even though he legally hasn't been granted that control by the Town. It is just how those kinds of guys think.

[tommyg]

The Austin State Mental Hospital has a gun buster sign (totally non compliant) on the front gate.
I don't know if it is legal or not to carry there but I would not even think
of carry on the grounds of a mental hospital

[C-dub]

The Austin State Mental Hospital has a gun buster sign (totally non compliant) on the front gate.
I don't know if it is legal or not to carry there but I would not even think
of carry on the grounds of a mental hospital

They probably couldn't enforce it even if they did put up a 30.06 sign, as it's state property. I visit a family member in a state facility several times a year and am carrying every time. Just like any other time, I probably and hopefully won't ever need it there, but talk about a place with the potential for things to get out of hand quickly.

[srothstein]

The Austin State Mental Hospital has a gun buster sign (totally non compliant) on the front gate.
I don't know if it is legal or not to carry there but I would not even think
of carry on the grounds of a mental hospital

They probably couldn't enforce it even if they did put up a 30.06 sign, as it's state property.

As a hospital, a proper 30.06 sign would be enforceable, even on state property. That clause about state property has the exemption in it for property prohibited by 46.035 so it would still be a crime.

[C-dub]

The Austin State Mental Hospital has a gun buster sign (totally non compliant) on the front gate.
I don't know if it is legal or not to carry there but I would not even think
of carry on the grounds of a mental hospital

They probably couldn't enforce it even if they did put up a 30.06 sign, as it's state property.

As a hospital, a proper 30.06 sign would be enforceable, even on state property. That clause about state property has the exemption in it for property prohibited by 46.035 so it would still be a crime.

Bummer. Good thing I put that "probably" in there.

EDIT: And fortunately the facility I visit does not post any 30.06 signs.

[C-dub]

The Austin State Mental Hospital has a gun buster sign (totally non compliant) on the front gate.
I don't know if it is legal or not to carry there but I would not even think
of carry on the grounds of a mental hospital

They probably couldn't enforce it even if they did put up a 30.06 sign, as it's state property.

As a hospital, a proper 30.06 sign would be enforceable, even on state property. That clause about state property has the exemption in it for property prohibited by 46.035 so it would still be a crime.

This has been bugging me all day. Are you sure about this Steve? It seems like the exceptions in 30.06 and 46.035 are a loop that contradict each other.

1. Hospitals are only off limits if they post a proper 30.06 sign.
2. Government owned property, with some exceptions, are prohibited from prohibiting a CHL from carrying.
3. Hospitals are not one of those places mentioned as an exception for government owned or leased places like courtrooms or prisons.

I want to believe you Steve, but something's not quite right. I just keep over this one.

[Matt78665]

My wife and I volunteer with a therapy dog group in a North Austin Hospital. They are properly posted and thus I do not carry there. If it is not posted then carry away

[srothstein]

This has been bugging me all day. Are you sure about this Steve? It seems like the exceptions in 30.06 and 46.035 are a loop that contradict each other.

1. Hospitals are only off limits if they post a proper 30.06 sign.
2. Government owned property, with some exceptions, are prohibited from prohibiting a CHL from carrying.
3. Hospitals are not one of those places mentioned as an exception for government owned or leased places like courtrooms or prisons.

I want to believe you Steve, but something's not quite right. I just keep over this one.

Try looking at it this way:

30.06 is not valid on state property unless it is listed in 46.035
hospitals are listed in 46.035 as prohibited if the sign is posted.
Hospital has the sign so it is prohibited
Sign is now valid and enforceable


In reality, you could ignore the requirement for signs in 46.035 and use the logic of if the location is listed at all in 46.035, it is illegal and enforceable. I would bet any court would read this as the intent of the legislature if they had any questions about the meaning of the sections.

[C-dub]

This has been bugging me all day. Are you sure about this Steve? It seems like the exceptions in 30.06 and 46.035 are a loop that contradict each other.

1. Hospitals are only off limits if they post a proper 30.06 sign.
2. Government owned property, with some exceptions, are prohibited from prohibiting a CHL from carrying.
3. Hospitals are not one of those places mentioned as an exception for government owned or leased places like courtrooms or prisons.

I want to believe you Steve, but something's not quite right. I just keep over this one.

Try looking at it this way:

30.06 is not valid on state property unless it is listed in 46.035
hospitals are listed in 46.035 as prohibited if the sign is posted.
Hospital has the sign so it is prohibited
Sign is now valid and enforceable


In reality, you could ignore the requirement for signs in 46.035 and use the logic of if the location is listed at all in 46.035, it is illegal and enforceable. I would bet any court would read this as the intent of the legislature if they had any questions about the meaning of the sections.

Yes, but if Texas actually deleted things from the law, instead of adding a little part at the end making them an exception, hospitals wouldn't be there any more. Since they made it a requirement that they post a 30.06 hospitals are no different than a fast food place for these purposes. If they were to write this law today, hospitals and churches, and amusement parks wouldn't be in 46.035 at all and we wouldn't be talking about this at all. Well, maybe a little.

This is really the only reason I question this. The only reason hospitals are "in" 46.035 is because Texas doesn't delete anything from their code, they just make an exception for it excluding it. Hospitals are in there, but not really.

[srothstein]

Well, yeah, you are right about not deleting stuff. And to show how right, look at government code 411.204. Hospitals are still required to post the signs forbidding carry using the 51% language, even though it doesn't mean anything and was never enforced.

[2farnorth]

Had a recent visit to the ER in Red River Regional Hospital in Bonham, Tx. They have a valid 30.06 sign on the ER entrance. Didn't check the main entrance this time but 3 years ago they had none. They did have an "operator" change in the interim.