Stopped By Police in Greenville Texas

[gigag04]

SRoth will better than I, but if a person refused to allow the numbers on the guns ran, I'm not sure what recourse the officer would have, absent PC for search.

[urnoodle]

Pardon my ignorance...but based on the OPs situation, would a CHL holder have the right to refuse the check on the firearm serial number? I see both sides of the coin. It was a routine traffic stop which is still a violation in the eyes of the law and the violation can more than likely be used to leverage probable cause. The other side of the coin, if nothing returns on the drivers license check isn't it a violation of the 4th ammendment? As I see it the firearm is now on record with a law enforcement agency as being in the OPs possession. My CHL instructor provided the same instructions as you all have; inform the LEO that you are carrying and comply with the LEOs instructions. I wouldn't want to antagonize a LEO but I wonder where one should draw the line.

[KRM45]

... She made an illegal left hand turn from a right hand turn only lane... what should we have done...

One option is to not make illegal turns...

As far as consenting to a search of your property, I would advise against it.

[speedsix]

...the law doesn't authorize running the CHL weapon while the officer has us disarmed, but it would be natural and instinctive to run it...I think the "disarm" law should have been written to clearly say one way or the other...

[srothstein]

There are several questions hidden in this situation that may provide very different answers. The first side is the legal side, some of which may be debatable. Let's start with the running of the numbers. I have always been taught that this is a search, which may or may not be correct or make a difference in your logic. I am going to continue to assume that this is a search. Then comes the question of if this is a legal search. As a general rule, may seize anything in plain view where he is legal to be. If he legally comes into possession of the firearm, running the numbers would be legal (assuming they are visible without field-stripping the pistol). So, you have no way to object legally to the running of the numbers once the officer has the gun.

Which gets us to the question of seizing the gun. While the officer asked int his case, I will point out that he has the legal authority to seize event he cased guns. The law (GC 411.207) says the officer may disarm the CHL. It does not say just the one gun or any gun on his person. Leaving a person in possession of even cased guns means he has not been disarmed. So, the officer can legally take the cased guns. This, of course, presumes that there is no legal question of officer safety, which is a requirement for taking the guns.

But that brings you back to the search of the seized gun to get the number. If the gun was cased, I don't think the plain view rule would apply to the serial number. There are other legal ways to get into it, but they are sort of outside the scope of this type of stop. In the instant case, since the OP consented, they are also irrelevant, as is even the plain view rule.

That gets to the question of whether or not you should consent. This is a personal decision. The things to consider are your desire to stand on your rights, your desire to privacy, your willingness to cooperate with the police, your trust of the police and government, your trust of your knowledge of what could possibly be found (did you buy the gun used?), and your desire to continue on your way. The old saying "go along to get along" may hold true. Your are much more likely to get a ticket if you do not cooperate in the officer's desires. That may not be right but is fact.

Which gets us all to the last question. If the officer does not get consent, what can he do? Legally, he must develop probable cause or let you go. In reality, some officers will search anyway, even though it is illegal. They know that absent some real harm (and the courts generally will not hold the delay or search as enough harm), you won't get anything from a lawsuit and they may not get any real punishment from the department if you do complain.

[Kabong30]

Here's my gut feeling on this. There was no reason to search you. You had a basic moving violation and that isn't probable cause. I feel like it's a tactic used to discourage people from carrying. It's the equivalent of "griefing" to use a gaming term. It's just intentionally holding things up and causing a delay in order to irritate someone.

"GC §411.207. (from the DPS site)

AUTHORITY OF PEACE OFFICER TO DISARM.

A peace officer who is acting in the lawful discharge of the officer's official duties may disarm a license holder at any time the officer reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual. The peace officer shall return the handgun to the license holder before discharging the license holder from the scene if the officer determines that the license holder is not a threat to the officer, license holder, or another individual and if the license holder has not violated any provision of this subchapter or committed any other violation that results in the arrest of the license holder."

I'd like to understand why he "reasonably believes it is necessary for the protection of the license holder, officer, or another individual" to search and then run guns that were not even on your person (from what I can tell). I'd comply with his order, but I'd get a supervisor out there, and I'd make sure I stated that it was under protest. And before it might get mentioned, I like and respect LEOs, but I think this kind of situation is an abuse of power.

[speedsix]

...no doubt, once he has arrested me, he has the right to inventory anything I have on me...and the car...but the traffic stop is not an arrest, and he can only do what the law allows with reference to my CHL weapon...by law...unless he can articulate probable cause to search...I still wouldn't have a problem with him NCIC checking my carry pistols...but not whatever else was in my car...

[Rex B]

Interesting question.

Thanks SRothstein for your view, ahd not consider that "disarm" covered any gun in the vehicle. If they are in the trunk, when does this become a warrantless search?

I think were I faced with this predicament, I would say something like "Officer, you do what you think legal and proper, but I want it on the record that I do NOT consent to a search of my property without a warrant".

As for "go along to get along", I don't intend to forfeit any of my rights without a clear legal basis.

[The Annoyed Man]

...I personally don't mind if he runs the guns I'm CHLing...if and while he's "holding them" for his safety and mine...but not cased guns...that's a search...and I'm not sure that he has the right to run the CHL guns in NCIC...I just know it's not that big a deal to me and MANY crimes have been solved by running a gun found on a traffic stop in NCIC...so I'm personally for it...it's a fine line...but not a faint one...

This. I'm not even close to resembling some sort of standard profiling stereotype, so there just isn't anything about me that would make any such search question anything except a fishing expedition. I don't have a thing to hide, but there is a bright line beyond which I'm not prepared to allow an LEO to invade me and mine without a warrant. Last Saturday, my son and I went to a private shooting gathering put together by our local chapter of the zombiehunters.org forum at an acquaintance's ranch near Proctor. Including the two handguns my son and I were CHLing between us, we had 13 long guns in the back of my SUV:

• 6 AR15s
• 1 AR10
• 2 .308 bolt rifles
• 1 M1A
• 1 M1 carbine
• 2 shotguns

All of these guns were being transported in rifle cases. We also had the following ammo complement:

• 1,000 rounds of M855 5.56 NATO
• 500 rounds of M193 5.56 NATO
• 100 rounds of 69 grain .223 match
• 200 rounds of 150 grain 7.62 NATO
• 100 rounds of 168 and 175 grain .308 Federal Match
• 120 rounds of 175 grain match handloads

In addition to that, were were a box or two of .45 ACP and a box of 12 gauge. On top of all there were a couple of bugout bags and some other ancillary gear.

What do you suppose a cop might think of all that? Hopefully, nothing..... But frankly, I don't care what he might think. Even if no real harm would be done by searching our vehicle, and even though every single weapon in that vehicle was legally purchased and legal to own, and even though that ownership was easily provable, unloading the vehicle and uncasing all the guns, running all the serial numbers, explaining what we were up to.....all of that would have set us back at least an hour from arriving to meet a bunch of people who were waiting for us to get there. For what? To satisfy somebody's curiosity who has no real probable cause? The mere fact of firearms possession by itself is NOT probable cause for a search, not as long as your CHL is valid. If a cop had stopped me and asked for permission to search, I would have told him no. I have a schedule to keep. He has seen my ID, including my CHL, and that alone should be all the reassurance that he needs as to whether or not he needs to dig any further.......particularly since I never drive in a manner which is likely to get their attention in the first place.

[MoJoeWrkn]

Last Saturday, my son and I went to a private shooting gathering put together by our local chapter of the zombiehunters.org forum at an acquaintance's ranch near Proctor

Wow that sounds like a lot of fun! I want to shoot some zombies!!

[speedsix]

...readin' that list, confiscation sounds more and more reasonable...providin' I can be the officer...you guys had a LOT of fun!!!

"... I'm not even close to resembling some sort of standard profiling stereotype..." (snicker, snicker, snark, snark...)

[Rex B]

Last Saturday, my son and I went to a private shooting gathering put together by our local chapter of the zombiehunters.org forum at an acquaintance's ranch near Proctor

Wow that sounds like a lot of fun! I want to shoot some zombies!!

Apparently they're pretty thick out around Proctor

[Heartland Patriot]

Ownership of a firearm in Texas is having it in your possession pretty much. This isn't New Jersey and it doesn't matter if you are carrying your fathers gun, best friends gun, strangers gun etc. You are in control of the firearm when carrying doesn't matter!

I'd say the only "exception" would be if a person had a firearm that was specifically reported as stolen, for whatever reason (not saying the individual stole it, just HAD it, such as bought used not knowing it was stolen). Not sure how that works, though. Can anyone clarify?

[speedsix]

...wherever it shows up stolen...it's confiscated...sometimes the present possessor has recourse (like if it was bought in a pawn shop)...sometimes none...Caveat Emptor...

[pmcdn]

I would hope that if I show respect for his authority/safety--I will get treated the same way.

I have found this to be the case in 99% of my dealings. I always put emphasis on making him/her feel safe. When they pull you over, they don't know if you're an honest citizen or a criminal who's about to dispatch hot lead in their direction. I always roll both my front and back window down on the driver's side, make sure to pull over far enough off road so that the officer isn't standing too close to the road when he walks up (I've seen too many videos of distracted drivers plowing into cops and pulled over cars), keep my hands on the steering wheel, if it's night I put the dome light on, I address him or her as "officer," etc. I find that I get very good treatment no matter what my infraction was, and have multiple times been let off with a warning when a ticket was warranted. All this is notwithstanding the 1% who give the others a bad name...

My thoughts exactly. I pull over safely, roll down my window while pulling over, turn the engine off and put my keys on the dashboard, keep both hands on the wheel in plain site, and then politely and respectfully comply with the officer. Most of the LEO's I am friends with say that (with the exception of warrants) if you behave as described above, they are going to go easy, or easier on you than if you behave in any other way. To me, it's just common sense. Non-complience, back talk, smart-assed talk, giving the LEO an attitude, etc will make it go the other direction very quickly.

QUESTION: Regarding the part of the original post about the LEO asking if they can search his bags/car, this is where I am unclear. I hear people saying that you shouldn't ever give consent to a search because if they have probably cause, they aren't going to ask for your permission. On the one hand, I can see why some advise this, but on the other hand I feel that you may be changing the "friendly" way the stop may be going up to that point. MY personal thoughts are, if I am not breaking the law then search away, as I have nothing to hide. I don't ever drink and drive, I don't do drugs, or carry, handle, transport, etc guns or anything else in an illegal manner. So, why WOULD I care if the LEO searches my car?

Thoughts?