what would you do?

[74novaman]

P.S. I think that all these crazy "what if" situations where it's impossible to come out a "winner" are started by anti 2nd A posters. Don't play their game. Instead of saying what you'd do if you were in such and such a situation, let them know that you're able to AVOID the situation because you know where the exits are.

Having personally met the OP, I assure you that you are about as wrong as a person can be (as in, on par with Obama's economic policy) concerning her stance on the 2nd amendment.


To those saying give up the wallet, I agree, though with a caution: If they just take the wallets, run, strip out cards and cash later, that might work.

Several concerns in my mind though: If they look through your wallet in store, and find your CHL you've lost the element of surprise regarding the fact you're armed. As well, if they find a CHL with your address on it they might be tempted to try to break in for some guns sometime, or tell an acquaintance in prison about a house that probably "has guns".

I understand I'm giving them a lot of credit that they might remember an address, but anything is possible.

[mamabearCali]

All of these "what if" scenarios keep popping up on the forum, but they all have one thing in common. They all assume that you were caught unprepared by surprise. Here's my favorite perennial "what if": "what if the bg has a gun to your head?"

My response: "Well you don't let him get his gun pointed to your head, !"

Always sit near the exit. That way, you could leave and if the bg were to follow (unlikely), then the bg would be silhouetted in the doorway for easy pickings. If an exit seat were unavailable, then a seat with cover and an escape route would be preferable. As a last resort, a seat with a clear line of fire to the cash register and close to the entrance would be least preferred.

Body language, speed, and clothing would be indicators of possible intent. Always be aware of your surroundings with your peripheral vision. Even if you are looking at an exotic dancer at your center of vision, your peripheral vision should still sense something is possibly wrong if someone RUNS into the hair salon. There's no reason to RUN into a hair salon. Frowning and reaching for something underneath a cover garment would be corroborating body language. Clothing might be a giveaway, but many bg put on their Sunday best to lessen suspicion of a robbery and make a clean getaway, so that's not always reliable. Given the perp's speed and body language, you should already be reaching for your weapon and pedaling out the door. By the time the perp draws and yells, "It's a stickup!" You should already be halfway out the door with your gun drawn.

If you do have to shoot in a crowded room where there's no clear shot without danger of penetrating the bg and hitting someone else behind the bg, then practice shooting for a perp's foot. A perp who loses his balance due to a missing foot has a natural fall instinct response; the hand releases the gun and extends for balance and to break the fall. This means the perp will lose control of his weapon if you shoot him in the foot. The downward trajectory of a foot shot ensures that the shot will not over-penetrate the bg and hit someone behind him.

In summary, anywhere you go, be sure to look for the required by law red "EXIT" sign. This may save your life someday.

P.S. I think that all these crazy "what if" situations where it's impossible to come out a "winner" are started by anti 2nd A posters. Don't play their game. Instead of saying what you'd do if you were in such and such a situation, let them know that you're able to AVOID the situation because you know where the exits are.

All of that is great advice! One thing though--you are assuming I am by myself and have the ability to run. Most likely I am not. The mom in the story had a elementary aged child and a baby--do you really think she can run? In just about any given situation I have three little ones 6 and under behind me/in the chair getting a hair cut. So cut and running might work if you are by yourself (doing just that has saved my life twice) but I started carrying because I suddenly realized that I (physically) could not run away anymore. Even if I have great awareness I will likely not be able to get three kids out the door quick fast and in a hurry. Just not realistic no matter how well I have trained them to obey.

Your foot idea is great! I have also heard suggested to shoot them in the pelvis/lower abdomen in that situation as the bullet would either get entagled in bone or be on a downward projectory and yet would still do devastating damage.

[74novaman]

If you do have to shoot in a crowded room where there's no clear shot without danger of penetrating the bg and hitting someone else behind the bg, then practice shooting for a perp's foot. A perp who loses his balance due to a missing foot has a natural fall instinct response; the hand releases the gun and extends for balance and to break the fall. This means the perp will lose control of his weapon if you shoot him in the foot. The downward trajectory of a foot shot ensures that the shot will not over-penetrate the bg and hit someone behind him.

This seems like Hollywood inspired bad advice.

About the best way I could think of to produce a richochet and potentially damage bystanders would be to shoot at a bad guys feet like I was trying to make him dance in an old western movie. Floors are hard. Handgun caliber bullets tend to bounce off hard objects like that.

There are plenty of documented cases where BGs take a round or more center mass and keep moving. What makes you think there is any kind of guarantee that if a BG gets shot in the foot he's going to drop the gun, grab his foot and fall over?

Sorry, but I think that is a TERRIBLE idea.

[seamusTX]

P.S. I think that all these crazy "what if" situations where it's impossible to come out a "winner" are started by anti 2nd A posters.

Like the Kobayashi Maru?

No-win scenarios are are well worth discussing.

Always sit near the exit. That way, you could leave

Like at the dentist, right?

- Jim

[Kirk]

I can’t say that I completely aware of my surroundings 24/7 but do try to be. This comes from living for 2 years in a country where everyone is out to scam you or worst.

I realize many feel that lost of a single item (wallet or purse) is not worth fighting over and probably in some situations they’re right. ID thief will cost you more than the couple dollars you have in there, could take years and a lot of money to clear up.

I agree with Seabear mostly unless it looks like I could get a clear shot with minimal impact on the innocents-

This is why I tell my CHL students over and over that they needto go through multiple scenarios in their heads LONG before they start carrying. When the time comes, it's too late to decide how you would react. So I am gladyou are thinking about it now.

In this situation, with 2 against 1 and so many innocents nearby I would have to let the robbery unfold . If they take the money and run, nobody gets hurt. If I draw my weapon someone if not everyone could get hurt or killed. Now, if the robbers escalate things by showing signs of preparing to execute people before leaving or commit sexual assaults etc. I would have to look for my opportunity to STOP them. All the more reason to be proficient with your weapon.

[fishman]

If you do have to shoot in a crowded room where there's no clear shot without danger of penetrating the bg and hitting someone else behind the bg, then practice shooting for a perp's foot. A perp who loses his balance due to a missing foot has a natural fall instinct response; the hand releases the gun and extends for balance and to break the fall. This means the perp will lose control of his weapon if you shoot him in the foot. The downward trajectory of a foot shot ensures that the shot will not over-penetrate the bg and hit someone behind him.

This seems like Hollywood inspired bad advice.

About the best way I could think of to produce a richochet and potentially damage bystanders would be to shoot at a bad guys feet like I was trying to make him dance in an old western movie. Floors are hard. Handgun caliber bullets tend to bounce off hard objects like that.

There are plenty of documented cases where BGs take a round or more center mass and keep moving. What makes you think there is any kind of guarantee that if a BG gets shot in the foot he's going to drop the gun, grab his foot and fall over?

Sorry, but I think that is a TERRIBLE idea.

Center Mass Tap Tap

[SewTexas]

So drjoker, you are going to shoot two gang bangers in a crowded room that contains small children? now, understand, I didn't say the room was crowded, you did. but I will say, you are braver than I am....I just hope only the BG's get hurt.

As to my stance on guns....I've been carrying for a very long time...possibly longer than you. take a look at some of my past posts before you start judging....

this isn't a hypothetical scenario either.

thank you novaman, we'll have to have another range day....after it cools off.

[SewTexas]

the idea of shooting at a bg's feet.....ummm, I've worked in a strip center, we even had carpet, one very unfortunate day I was turning on the "OPEN" sign and slipped and fell....I came remarkably close to hitting my head on the floor, I didn't walk straight for 2 weeks...it's concrete!!! even with carpet on top, it's concrete, you put a bullet in toward that and the ricochet is going to do what you've been trying to avoid! (hitting a mirror, or a baby, or other innocent)

[kragluver]

As others have pointed out, the "foot" shot may be wishful thinking. However, along those lines (avoiding richochets, minimizing chance of hitting innocents, desiring to break down BG's mobility, etc.) - kneeling and taking an upward trajectory pelvic shot is suggested by some. This has the advantage of you being low and a smaller target, your bullet trajectory is likely to miss immediate bystanders, and getting hit in the pelvis - especially with a large calibrer pistol round - is probably going to make the BG fall down and stay down.

I didn't invent this one - I read it on the internet:)

Now - if you can just remember all that when the adrenaline dump occurs!

[SewTexas]

Now - if you can just remember all that when the adrenaline dump occurs!

yeh, but that's kinda the biggest reason for this kind of discussion. so that we can work through this in our 'imagination' if you will, so that if we picture things we've at least done some of the steps....I don't know that made sense until I wrote it.

I didn't bring it up to talk about my 'poor friend' or about the creep who did it, but so that we could see that we women aren't safe even in one of the 'safest' places ever. This dude had just hit a Nail Salon a few days earlier!!! the two places a woman lets herself go...relax...veg...when I was talking to my sister, she just about came unglued! I'm not sure if it was the locations, or because of the babies, or both. she loves to get her hair and nails done.

[The Annoyed Man]

Fighting like your life was on the line might be a good idea. I dunno.

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Barber shops and hairdressers are prime robbery targets because they take in a lot of cash. I'm surprised they are not robbed more often than they are. Women are more vulnerable to kidnapping and rape. Some criminals seem to want to kill just for the sake of doing evil.

- Jim

I couldn't agree more. When you compare the outcome of the above two stories to this one: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22966597/, what becomes apparent is that the survivors of the first two incidents fought back. The five women in Chicago went docilely to their deaths, yet they outnumbered the BGs 5 to 2.

I'm not advocating that we do anything reckless, and only the person in the actual situation can have a realistic appraisal of the possible; but sometimes the reckless thing is meek acquiescence. There are two important points of view to have, particularly if you have a CHL, in order to survive these kinds of things: 1) refuse to be a victim; and 2) have enough of a warrior spirit to accept that you might get hurt or killed if you fight back, and that not fighting back is no guarantee that you still won't be hurt or killed.

A good idea is to have a "throw down" wallet. Always carry your gun on your body.

[74novaman]

A good idea is to have a "throw down" wallet. Always carry your gun on your body.

I'd carry a throw down wallet, but I'd need to get more pockets then my usual cargo shorts. I already carry a gun, 2 spare mags, wallet, phone, keys, knife.... I'm out of room!!!!

[gigag04]

Shoot 1 once. Shoot 2 twice. Shoot 1 again.

Repeat until threat stops.

[Big Tuna]

Shoot 1 once. Shoot 2 twice. Shoot 1 again.

Repeat until threat stops.

Family style! Everyone gets firsts before anyone gets seconds.

[seeker_two]

Something to consider....most people in a beauty salon will be seated (either in the beauticians' chair or waiting their turn)....and most small children are rather short......

....aim high chest/head and shoot like your life depends on it?....