Wichita Falls Officer Shot by Homeowner

[phddan]

Snip

Or they can rob you blind of anything you have in your back yard! I will not let badguys have free run of my property just because it is dark.

Absolutely.

No one knows my property like myself.

Peeping tom, arsonist, robber, rapist, lost child, neighbor in trouble, or what have you, I'm checking it out. That being said, both the homeowner that shot the cop, and the cop that shot the newlywed, were wrong.
IDENTIFY THE THREAT, IDENTIFY YOUR TARGET

Dan

[Excaliber]

Or they can rob you blind of anything you have in your back yard! I will not let badguys have free run of my property just because it is dark.

I solve that problem by not keeping anything worth dying for in my backyard.

[Liberty]

Or they can rob you blind of anything you have in your back yard! I will not let badguys have free run of my property just because it is dark.

I solve that problem by not keeping anything worth dying for in my backyard.

I have very little worth dying for, but I'm not willing to let just anyone take anything away from me without a fight. At certain times in my life I have put myself at risk for other peoples stuff. I don't mind doing it for my own stuff. Although I believe in taking steps to minimize the risk. If I ever get to afraid to check out my own property, I should probably give up that property and move someplace safer. I understand that some might feel different. But I believe if I'm willing to let folks steal my stuff sure as heck someone will take my stuff.

So far one has killed me yet.

[pedalman]

Excalibur, I am glad that you and Steve Rothstein frequent this forum. I really learn a lot from you guys. You also help me with lots of reality checks for these scenarios.

[bryang]

Excalibur, I am glad that you and Steve Rothstein frequent this forum. I really learn a lot from you guys. You also help me with lots of reality checks for these scenarios.

I definitely agree and add my "thank you" for sharing you wisdom and experiences with us. I for one, appreciate all of ya'll on this forum... very much!

-geo

[Excaliber]

Or they can rob you blind of anything you have in your back yard! I will not let badguys have free run of my property just because it is dark.

I solve that problem by not keeping anything worth dying for in my backyard.

I have very little worth dying for, but I'm not willing to let just anyone take anything away from me without a fight. At certain times in my life I have put myself at risk for other peoples stuff. I don't mind doing it for my own stuff. Although I believe in taking steps to minimize the risk. If I ever get to afraid to check out my own property, I should probably give up that property and move someplace safer. I understand that some might feel different. But I believe if I'm willing to let folks steal my stuff sure as Hades someone will take my stuff.

So far one has killed me yet.

I'm glad to hear that no one has killed you yet, because that first time is such a bummer.

There's a difference between not doing something out of fear or cowardice, and not doing something because it places one in unnecessary danger because it's tactically unsound. I searched for, fought with, and dragged bad guys out of really nasty places for over 20 years, and I have a pretty well developed concept of what risks are worth taking and which aren't. Not everything I did was really smart, and I have the emergency room visits to prove it. However, at this point in my life, I have no need to prove to myself, my wife, my kids, or my neighbors that I'm brave, smart, sexy, or anything else. When I'm confronted with a dangerous situation, I look to manage it so I survive physically, legally, and financially first. Anything after that is a nice to have.

I am well aware that some folks live a rich fantasy life and relish the opportunity to play night ninja because they think that with their trusty pistol in hand,they will dominate the bad guys and be seen as a hero at the conclusion of the incident. (I'm not attaching this observation to anyone here on the forum, so hold the flames please.) Folks who have been through a whole lot of these incidents over time have a healthy respect for just how cunning, violent, and ruthless the bad guys can be, and how difficult it is to maneuver safely in a 360 degree low light threat environment.

If a night ninja confronts the 13 year old from down the street who's trying to make off with his hubcaps, he'll probably come through it OK as long as he doesn't use excessive force. If he tries to take on bad guys who've been at their game for several years, he'll be totally outclassed regardless of how expensive his carry piece is. The bad guys will use distraction, apparent submission, sleight of hand, concealment, and other maneuvers to draw the ninja into a tactical position where he can be successfully attacked and overwhelmed. It's a whole lot different from launching rounds at a static paper target that is always straight ahead and doesn't move or shoot back in a well lighted indoor range. Unless he's really lucky, the ninja will not only lose, he'll be lucky if he isn't seriously injured or killed. If his neighbor is a night ninja too, his chances of doing well are significantly reduced because when they both get excited and see silhouettes with weapons in their hands, they both will have an excellent chance of finding out why friendly fire isn't friendly.

If you only do something once or twice in your life, even if you don't follow the wisest course, it's possible that you may luck out and get away with it. If you use unsound tactics several times a day in what you do for a living, you create a serious risk that you won't get to collect a pension. That's why some of us have put so much effort into learning from past incidents and applying the lessons for the future.

The views I share have been developed from after action reviews of a very large number of incidents from my own experience and that of many others, and from a great deal of research. My hope is that those who have an interest in learning will benefit from what I have to say and will use it to manage their own critical incidents in a way that favors their success. I also look forward to critiques of my views because the more I learn, the less I know.

For the folks who think I'm all wet and they have much better ways of doing things, I wish them the best of luck and only ask that they share their after action reports on the forum so others can learn from their experiences as well.

[Excaliber]

Excalibur, I am glad that you and Steve Rothstein frequent this forum. I really learn a lot from you guys. You also help me with lots of reality checks for these scenarios.

I definitely agree and add my "thank you" for sharing you wisdom and experiences with us. I for one, appreciate all of ya'll on this forum... very much!

-geo

Bryang and Pedalman, I'm very happy that you've found some useful tidbits in my posts. Knowing that this happens from time to time is rewarding to me and makes the effort involved worthwhile.

[Elvis]

Well said Excaliber...

[SlowDave]

Well, I'll throw out a possible, rational (in my mind) scenario. My dog (who never barks unless someone is in his yard or within vision) started barking like crazy one night around 1 a.m. Now, do I call the police? Seems a little over the top. So, I grab the pistol and go out to investigate. Turned out it was a coon hanging on the side of our house (in the suburbs!) scared to death. But I could have walked out to find The Bad Guy(s). I wouldn't ever go outside to confront bad guys, but I will go outside to investigate strange noises and stuff. I guess someday, I could find that the noise was one that I should have called the police for. Any recommendations of some alternative action plan to take in situations like this?

You did lock the door behind you when you went outside to make sure an intruder couldn't slip in behind you, didn't you? I thought so. Good thing it was a raccoon.

Here are a couple of thoughts on the alternative action plan request:

If the noise is outside and can't be positively identified as a threat, your best course of action is to stay inside and monitor the situation. It will either develop into an identifiable threat with a clear set of options and you in a solid tactical position in a building interior you can effectively control, or it will fade away. There's seldom much of an immediate threat to your safety when a potential threat is still outside and you're inside. If a threat can be identified while it is still outside (either by sound or by going the low tech route of looking out your windows), it's time to call for the cavalry and take up an armed defensive position with preparations to safely stop an intrusion if it occurs.

If you go outside, you put yourself at high risk, severely complicate the situation for responding officers, and leave the rest of the family undefended inside. The recent tragic shooting of the newlywed who did this in Anaheim, CA serves as an excellent reminder of just how badly this can go. I don't see an upside to this tactic in a suburban environment, with the exception of a situation where a deadly attack on an innocent party is actually in progress outside and immediate intervention will make the difference between survival and severe injury or death for the victim.

Excaliber,
Thanks for your post. I did not lock the door, although I only got a few feet from it. I was pretty sure it was something unimportant, like an animal, since the situation had not escalated, but "pretty sure's" not gonna do it if/when I'm wrong.

I like your idea, but applying to this situation as an example, I don't see a clear way out. If I had stayed inside, looking from the windows only, I could not see the coon, since he was actually on the corner of the house, not visible from the window unless I opened it, removed the screen and stuck my head out. And if I had waited, I think that coon would've stayed on the side of the house for hours (he'd already been there ~30 min and was still very difficult to knock off) while my dog barked once every 15 seconds until dawn, or something. Point is, I don't think it would have either developed into something identifiable nor faded away (per your post above). I guess that would leave me calling the police to come out and find a raccoon on the side of my house, at which point I'd feel pretty stupid. I guess I'd still rather feel stupid than feel dead.

Good discussion in any case. I will think more seriously the next time before going out to investigate these trivial little things like what's my dog barking at or what's that sound in the back yard. It would be very tragic to open the door and walk into an ambush.

[Excaliber]

Well, I'll throw out a possible, rational (in my mind) scenario. My dog (who never barks unless someone is in his yard or within vision) started barking like crazy one night around 1 a.m. Now, do I call the police? Seems a little over the top. So, I grab the pistol and go out to investigate. Turned out it was a coon hanging on the side of our house (in the suburbs!) scared to death. But I could have walked out to find The Bad Guy(s). I wouldn't ever go outside to confront bad guys, but I will go outside to investigate strange noises and stuff. I guess someday, I could find that the noise was one that I should have called the police for. Any recommendations of some alternative action plan to take in situations like this?

You did lock the door behind you when you went outside to make sure an intruder couldn't slip in behind you, didn't you? I thought so. Good thing it was a raccoon.

Here are a couple of thoughts on the alternative action plan request:

If the noise is outside and can't be positively identified as a threat, your best course of action is to stay inside and monitor the situation. It will either develop into an identifiable threat with a clear set of options and you in a solid tactical position in a building interior you can effectively control, or it will fade away. There's seldom much of an immediate threat to your safety when a potential threat is still outside and you're inside. If a threat can be identified while it is still outside (either by sound or by going the low tech route of looking out your windows), it's time to call for the cavalry and take up an armed defensive position with preparations to safely stop an intrusion if it occurs.

If you go outside, you put yourself at high risk, severely complicate the situation for responding officers, and leave the rest of the family undefended inside. The recent tragic shooting of the newlywed who did this in Anaheim, CA serves as an excellent reminder of just how badly this can go. I don't see an upside to this tactic in a suburban environment, with the exception of a situation where a deadly attack on an innocent party is actually in progress outside and immediate intervention will make the difference between survival and severe injury or death for the victim.

Excaliber,
Thanks for your post. I did not lock the door, although I only got a few feet from it. I was pretty sure it was something unimportant, like an animal, since the situation had not escalated, but "pretty sure's" not gonna do it if/when I'm wrong.

I like your idea, but applying to this situation as an example, I don't see a clear way out. If I had stayed inside, looking from the windows only, I could not see the coon, since he was actually on the corner of the house, not visible from the window unless I opened it, removed the screen and stuck my head out. And if I had waited, I think that coon would've stayed on the side of the house for hours (he'd already been there ~30 min and was still very difficult to knock off) while my dog barked once every 15 seconds until dawn, or something. Point is, I don't think it would have either developed into something identifiable nor faded away (per your post above). I guess that would leave me calling the police to come out and find a raccoon on the side of my house, at which point I'd feel pretty stupid. I guess I'd still rather feel stupid than feel dead.

Good discussion in any case. I will think more seriously the next time before going out to investigate these trivial little things like what's my dog barking at or what's that sound in the back yard. It would be very tragic to open the door and walk into an ambush.

Dave:

Here are a couple more thoughts to address your latest post. Would be night time intruders don't like light. High intensity (300 watt) floodlights that come on automatically when they detect movement (available at Home Depot or Lowe's) are a great help. When anything passes my fence line, my two units light up the entire backyard and side yard to the point that I worry some of the airliners on the way to DFW may think my yard is the runway.

Someone who's skulking around thinking he's pretty covert gets his own adrenaline dump when he's lit up by 300 watts of painfully white halogen illumination. Animals will trip the lights too (I set mine to stay on for just a couple of minutes). After a couple of weeks with the lights in place (and looking outside when they come on) you'll know exactly what animals visit and when they tend to do so (possum at about 12:30, armadillo at 3:00, etc.). You'll also see them before they get to the house, so you can make reasonable judgments on any sounds that may follow.

The other thing to remember is that the police are well aware that suspicious noises won't always turn out to be an intruder, and an animal is a real good possibility, but if you're alarmed by the sound and consider it worth investigating, it's worth calling the police for. It's a whole lot safer for you to stay inside, and to let them do the search because they're highly trained to do it with minimal risk to themselves (and none to you), wear easily identifiable uniforms, have great equipment including high intensity lighting, long guns, and two way communications that will quickly bring the whole cavalry if they ask for it, and they usually work in at least pairs. ( In a 360 degree low light threat environment, a tailgunner is an invaluable asset. ) And after they leave, you, your wife, and your dog can get some peaceful sleep.

After incident investigations often find that people heard or saw something that, had it been reported immediately, would have changed the outcome much for the better, but didn't call because they didn't want to bother the police, didn't want to be thought stupid if it turned out to be nothing, or they convinced themselves that it couldn't really be what it looked like. In my contacts with citizens and in public presentations, I advocated a very simple rule of thumb: Better ten calls too many than one call too few.

[03Lightningrocks]

Dave:

Here are a couple more thoughts to address your latest post. Would be night time intruders don't like light. High intensity (300 watt) floodlights that come on automatically when they detect movement (available at Home Depot or Lowe's) are a great help. When anything passes my fence line, my two units light up the entire backyard and side yard to the point that I worry some of the airliners on the way to DFW may think my yard is the runway.

Someone who's skulking around thinking he's pretty covert gets his own adrenaline dump when he's lit up by 300 watts of painfully white halogen illumination. Animals will trip the lights too (I set mine to stay on for just a couple of minutes). After a couple of weeks with the lights in place (and looking outside when they come on) you'll know exactly what animals visit and when they tend to do so (possum at about 12:30, armadillo at 3:00, etc.). You'll also see them before they get to the house, so you can make reasonable judgments on any sounds that may follow.

The other thing to remember is that the police are well aware that suspicious noises won't always turn out to be an intruder, and an animal is a real good possibility, but if you're alarmed by the sound and consider it worth investigating, it's worth calling the police for. It's a whole lot safer for you to stay inside, and to let them do the search because they're highly trained to do it with minimal risk to themselves (and none to you), wear easily identifiable uniforms, have great equipment including high intensity lighting, long guns, and two way communications that will quickly bring the whole cavalry if they ask for it, and they usually work in at least pairs. ( In a 360 degree low light threat environment, a tailgunner is an invaluable asset. ) And after they leave, you, your wife, and your dog can get some peaceful sleep.

After incident investigations often find that people heard or saw something that, had it been reported immediately, would have changed the outcome much for the better, but didn't call because they didn't want to bother the police, didn't want to be thought stupid if it turned out to be nothing, or they convinced themselves that it couldn't really be what it looked like. In my contacts with citizens and in public presentations, I advocated a very simple rule of thumb: Better ten calls too many than one call too few.

All I can think to say is WOW! I know you directed this to Dave, but I have to tell you how much I appreciate the level headed advise. Many of us here can relate in different ways to many of these situations. You give us much to consider in being prepared and making sound decisions.

Thank you.

[The Annoyed Man]

All I can think to say is WOW! I know you directed this to Dave, but I have to tell you how much I appreciate the level headed advise. Many of us here can relate in different ways to many of these situations. You give us much to consider in being prepared and making sound decisions.

Thank you.

Excaliber gave me similar advice a couple of months ago when I had faced pretty much exactly the same situation. It was the best and most common sense advice I had received on the subject, and it has altered the way my family and I will react to future noises/potential threats in the future. BTW, he is a professional security consultant with an extensive LEO background, so whatever advice he gives: A) he usually charges for it; and B) it is rooted in a lot of practical experience. It is worth paying attention to it.

[Excaliber]

[quote=:03Lightningrocks"]All I can think to say is WOW! I know you directed this to Dave, but I have to tell you how much I appreciate the level headed advise. Many of us here can relate in different ways to many of these situations. You give us much to consider in being prepared and making sound decisions.

Thank you. [/quote]

You're more than welcome!

It's always rewarding to hear that some of my contributions are considered to be of value by folks who are truly looking for answers to some very difficult and complex questions.

[bryang]

I want to add my, THANK YOU, Excaliber, for all of your post.

They have helped me to understand more than I could ever get out of books, and I have read a lot of them. You can learn so much from someone that has been through it already. And to see these situations from his perspective has been an eye opener.

I think everyone that gets a CHL should be required to take part in this forum.

Thanks,
-geo

[Excaliber]

I want to add my, THANK YOU, Excaliber, for all of your post.

They have helped me to understand more than I could ever get out of books, and I have read a lot of them. You can learn so much from someone that has been through it already. And to see these situations from his perspective has been an eye opener.

I think everyone that gets a CHL should be required to take part in this forum.

Thanks,
-geo

You are more than welcome as well.