What constitutes a "school"?

[carlson1]

Thank you so much. I had almost set the school on the back burner because of this reason. I will issue EVERYONE a Written Authorization that can be downloaded from my Website

[apowell]

Hi - I'm new to the forum but have been lurking for a while. There is some good stuff here to absorb and this looked like a good place to jump in.

I'm trying to get my head around what it would take to get authorized to carry into my son's school. They require the parent escort the child to class (he's 3) and since I carry at work (all tucked in and deep concealed) it is very difficult to get things back where they go sitting in a car. He attends a private Christian shool in a Church building that has classes for kids 18 months-6th grade, but I figure the same rules would apply to public schools as well (I have one in public shool as well but he doesn't need escorting).

Based on the premise that one could be authorized by a "school" (whatever that is) to carry on the premises, what level of school administrator's written authorization would be required to grant a CHL holder that permission?

School Board / Board of Directors
Superintendent
Assistant Superintendent
Principle
Assistant principle

Would this change depending on whether or not it was a public or private school?

If no expiration date was on the authorization, would it be presumed to remain in effect until specifically revoked in writing by an equal or higher level of "school" administrator?

I would think that a principle could authorized carry at an individual school in a public district or at a private school, and that the authorization would be implied to remain in effect at least as long as your child was attending the school, but what do I know. Also, would a district policy against authorizing concealed carry invalidate an administrators authorization from the CHL holders position if the CHL holder wasn't aware of the policy? Not that they couldn't get fired for authorizing it, but would the authorization be valid? Could someone not authorized to carry at a school by policy authorize someone else too?

The longer I think about it the more I type, so I'll stop now and throw it out there for discussion.

Thoughts?

[Charles L. Cotton]

Welcome to the forum. You must write law school exams!!

Based on the premise that one could be authorized by a "school" (whatever that is) to carry on the premises, what level of school administrator's written authorization would be required to grant a CHL holder that permission?

I would think anyone at an administrative level in the particular school. A teacher probably would not have the authority, but principal or vice-principle is clearly an administrative position and I think they would have the authority.

Would this change depending on whether or not it was a public or private school?

I don't think so.

If no expiration date was on the authorization, would it be presumed to remain in effect until specifically revoked in writing by an equal or higher level of "school" administrator?

If there was no expiration date, and no published policy as to the duration of such authorizations, I believe the authorization would be perpetual, unless revoked.

Also, would a district policy against authorizing concealed carry invalidate an administrators authorization from the CHL holders position if the CHL holder wasn't aware of the policy?

An authorization must come from someone with the authority, or at least apparent authority, to make such an authorization. If the district administration specifically denied such authority to administrators at the individual schools, then the authorization would probably be invalid. There could be exceptions such as the school district's acquiescence, actions by the district that would give apparent authority when viewed by reasonable person and overt actions to hide the lack of authority at the local level. However, these exceptions would have to be proven in court, if an arrest were made.

Even if authorization carry on school grounds were issued by someone without authority to do so, as long as the CHL was not aware of the lack of authority, then the state may find it difficult to prove the required mental state (mens rea).

Very good questions; I wish I had equally good answers.

Regards,
Chas.

[apowell]

You must write law school exams!!

Nope, but my Mom always said I should have been a lawyer, though I think she was referring to my propensity to argue, over analyze and never yield, even when I was wrong... not that I was ever wrong

I appreciate the answers. They were very helpful. I wasn't expecting to get hard definitive answers since we all seem to agree that the whole "can't carry in a school" part of the law, as well as being a BAD idea , is a little on the vague side.

Thanks for the input,

[apowell]

Just as an update to my "written authorization" post.

I made the request of my son's school (private school). I had pretty much convinced them to do approve it as opposed to having me "messing" with it in the car, but they had to run it by their insurance underwriter to see if it would affect their liability policy. Who knows if it is something even addressed by their policy, but the ins.co. said they couldn't issue the waiver under their liability coverage.

So apparently, you don't need the school administrator's permission, you need the school's insurance company's permission.

FYI for calson1: There is only one Church School insurance provider practicing in TX (Guide One) and apparently they don't approve waivers for schools. If you start a school, read your policy very closely to see if anything about guns and waivers is in there so you don't inadvertantly "uninsure" yourself (they may have been blowing smoke at my school). Of course, if no one knows you gave yourself a waiver then no problem and if you ever need it you'd probably prefer having your .45 insurance today over your liability insurance tomorrow.

I can just see the headline. "Guide One, a provider of insurance to churches and church schools, cancelled the policy of a Christian school in Texas today when the administrator of the school shot a gunman who entered the building and began shooting at students. The insurance company sited a clause in their policy prohibiting the school from issuing written waivers to CHL holders allowing them to carry their concealed handgun into the school. The gunman, in stable condition at a local hospital has announced plans to sue the now uninsured school."

[stevie_d_64]

I would think an insurance company covers the all the policies and facilities in the district, and not an individual facility within that district, so when they "ask" I honestly believe it will be refused, because of the "liberal" mindset that if they let one person do it, everyone would be able to ask, and they'd have to let them do it as well...

But since you're dealing with a "private" school, that may be a different animal, but I predict the outcome of the inquiry will be similar...

They just can't let anyone torpedo their "gun free" school zone agenda, for any reasonable person...

But I do like your thought process...

[apowell]

As soon as they said they had to check with the insurance underwrite I pretty much knew the deal was sunk. The funny thing is that they probably have CHLers in that building every weekend, since it doubles as SS class space for the Church.

I thought the principle's eyes were going to pop out when I made the request. She was trying to be cool and reasonable on the outside and going AAAARRRRRGGGHHHH on the inside. She couldn't imagine why anyone would want to carry a gun around . Very sweet ladie, and I couldn't ask for a better principle for the school, but I bet she was nervous for the rest of the day.

Please forgive the overuse of the smilies. I just couldn't resist.

[apowell]

BTW carlson1. Please don't take offense. I didn't mean to imply that you weren't a good enough shot to properly "stop" the gunman in such a way that he would not be around to sue , but having you kill him wouldn't have made as ironic a story line.

[Charles L. Cotton]

Without seeing the insurance policy I can't give an opinion. However, I think they are blowing smoke. There is no "waiver" to get from an insurance company, unless the insurance policy expressly requires the school not to issue written approval to carry on school grounds. I don't believe that for a second!

Me thinks the insurance company was just an excuse. Even if she did call the insurance company, they don't have the authority to say no, unless it's specifically addressed in the policy.

Regards,
Chas.

[carlson1]

FYI for calson1: There is only one Church School insurance provider practicing in TX (Guide One) and apparently they don't approve waivers for schools. If you start a school, read your policy very closely to see if anything about guns and waivers is in there so you don't inadvertantly "uninsure" yourself (they may have been blowing smoke at my school). Of course, if no one knows you gave yourself a waiver then no problem and if you ever need it you'd probably prefer having your .45 insurance today over your liability insurance tomorrow."

You are correct about Guide One. They are one of the very few that will even insure Churches. Church Mutual has stopped writing Texas Policies. Guide One is very very expensive. I pay them a little of $10,000 a year and I am not about to ask for a "waiver."

[apowell]

I do believe that they called the insco, but I agree that they were hoping that they would say no at some level and remove the responsibility from them of makeing the decision.