No CHL and traffic stop while carrying in vehicle.

[Charles L. Cotton]

OK it’s a new day and I finally got some sleep so let me attempt to correct some of the mis-understandings some of you are getting from my earlier posts. First I would like to Thank Mr. Cotton for allowing us the opportunity to discuss these topics and I enjoy a healthy and productive debate. Many of you seem to be reading my statements and picking out small portions that you don’t agree with and that is fine but try and absorb the overall points I am attempting to make. I am a Cop and the head of a small agency and yes it can be a tough area. I am a Father, Husband, Texan, Christian, American, CHL Holder, NRA/TSRA Member, Gun Owner, LEO Firearms Instructor, LEO Academy Instructor and you will find no one more concerned and considerate about the rights of the citizens of this Great State. I am new to this forum but not new to the issues you all care so passionately about. I am a CHL Instructor with over 3000 students attending my classes. I believe strongly in the rights of everyone to be able to legally defend themselves and have no sympathy for those that would prey upon us our families.

Very few of us agree on every issue we discuss and some topics generate substantial disagreement. But this background information Elvis has given us shows he is a supporter of CHLs and the entire CHL program. It also shows he is in a position to impact the way his officers interact with CHLs and taking his comments to heart, I think he will demand respect from his officers. Thanks for the background info Elvis; it should help to put your position into perspective.

Now that you know a little bit about me go back and re-read this entire thread. The topic started off discussing the disparity regarding why CHL holders have to display their license and non-CHL holders do not. I am in agreement that this disparity is not FAIR. I expect the Legislators will address this issue and all will this will be taken care of. For now the law is that you must display your CHL when asked for ID and I think that is in the best interest of everyone involved. I attempted to give you a perspective of what LEO’s have to deal with on a daily basis. I have been accused of having a chip on my shoulder. Well I have been to too many Officers funerals in my career and that tends to do that to a person. Some here think I and other Officers will “Freak Out” if you tell me you have a gun. Any prudent Officer will assume that everyone we come into contact with is armed and has the ability to harm us UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE. My advise here has been prove you do not have the intention to harm the Officer by letting him know you are one of the “Good Guys” by displaying your CHL. It appears to me that some of you have had unfortunate contacts with Officers and for that I am truly saddened. Some of you may have been disarmed for no reason other than your status as a CHL holder and that is wrong. I can understand you not wanting to notify an Officer that you are armed in an attempt to prevent the Officer from disarming you and that can put a chip on your shoulder. I have heard the horror stories from my students and know Officers make bad judgments regarding your rights as a CHL holder. Trust me Officer Rothstein and I will attempt to correct that problem from our end. My purpose in posting here is to try and get the CHL holder to approach contact with law enforcement in a positive and safe manner.

I want to correct a misstatement I may have made during the seminar I gave on Friday, August 1st. I seem to recall someone asking me if they have to show their CHL during a traffic stop if they didn't get out of the car and I think I said "no" because you wouldn't be carrying "pursuant to the authority of your "CHL. If I did say that, I was wrong. As others have pointed out, the statute doesn't refer to carrying "pursuant to the authority" as it does in other places. (I was thinking about a different part of the Gov't Code.) Sorry about the mistake.

I want to repeat something I've said a number of times in various venues. LEOs and CHLs are natural-born allies. This doesn't mean we agree on every issue. (I met my wife when we were 12 years old and I've been crazy about her ever since. We've been married 35 years and we certainly don't agree on everything, but after 3 and 1/2 decades, I'd still run into a burning building for her.) For the most part, the vast majority of LEOs and CHLs have the same values, we dislike the same evils and evil people and we want to live in the same type of society. Yes, there are exceptions in both the LEO and CHL community. Some COPS flat don't want anyone but another COP to have a gun. In my view, they aren't fit to wear a badge and they would never work for me, if I was a Chief. On the other side of the coin, some CHLs think every COP is out to trample their rights. Both of these extreme views are wrong, but all too often they are based upon a small number of interactions that were "unpleasant." A CHL with a lousy and disrespectful attitude toward a LEO during a traffic stop or other encounter can leave a lasting impression, just as a COP with "heavy-badge syndrome" can cause a citizen to quickly develop an "I hate COPS" attitude. Both CHLs and LEOs make up a very small segment of the general population, so both groups are unlikely to deal with the other group on a frequent basis. Thus every single "bad" encounter is magnified, no matter which side of the badge you are on. I'm not saying we should dismiss a jerk's conduct (CHL or LEO), but I am saying I can't hold my sister-in-law's many faults against my wife. (But sometimes I wonder . . . )

Elvis and I obviously disagree on the legal requirement for showing a CHL during an interaction with law enforcement. I would still do it even if the law is changed for the reasons I've stated, but that's beside the point. Elvis wants his officers to know of the gun; I don't want a CHL facing suspension and/or a Class B conviction for forgetting to show a CHL. This difference of opinion doesn't turn natural allies into enemies. It doesn't mean I don't care about his officers' lives, nor does it mean he is showing contempt for CHLs.

I do understand the argument that CHLs having a disclosure requirement that does not apply to non-CHLs is both unfair and somewhat silly. I agree that it should be changed and I hope that comes about in 2009. If the disclosure requirement is repealed, I'll still recommend to my students that they show the CHL.

Whenever we get into discussions like these, I'm reminded of CHL/LEO's comment that every CHL is a representative of all CHLs when they are interacting with a LEO, and that the reverse is also true. Let's all be good ambassadors and remember that the next guy in line will have to deal with the impression we have created.

Chas.

[Elvis]

Very well stated sir...

Here endeth the lesson...

[Liberty]

This is one of the reasons I probably won't renew my CHL. I can carry at home and at work and at the deer lease and when I'm driving without a CHL. I don't see any reason to jump through hoops and pay $70 so I can get hassled during a traffic stop.

One thing you might want to consider is that there will be a lot of pressure in the next legislative sessions on the car carry laws. I don't believe its likely, but its certainly posible that the the legilature could renege on the the deal they made in 2007. It is taking some folks 6 months or longer to get their CHL processed

[McKnife]

Elvis and I obviously disagree on the legal requirement for showing a CHL during an interaction with law enforcement. I would still do it even if the law is changed for the reasons I've stated, but that's beside the point. Elvis wants his officers to know of the gun; I don't want a CHL facing suspension and/or a Class B conviction for forgetting to show a CHL. This difference of opinion doesn't turn natural allies into enemies. It doesn't mean I don't care about his officers' lives, nor does it mean he is showing contempt for CHLs.

Solution:

LEGALIZE OPEN CARRY!!!!

[lunchbox]

Elvis and I obviously disagree on the legal requirement for showing a CHL during an interaction with law enforcement. I would still do it even if the law is changed for the reasons I've stated, but that's beside the point. Elvis wants his officers to know of the gun; I don't want a CHL facing suspension and/or a Class B conviction for forgetting to show a CHL. This difference of opinion doesn't turn natural allies into enemies. It doesn't mean I don't care about his officers' lives, nor does it mean he is showing contempt for CHLs.

Solution:

LEGALIZE OPEN CARRY!!!!

i dont think thats going to happen
even if it did would you want the attention

[McKnife]

I'd love to see it happen, but I'm not holding my breath.

I currently carry with IWB holsters, but it's a pain because of my body shape.
I can't conceal a OWB holster as well as IWB, and tucking-in is out of the question.

Open carry would be beneficial by giving me peace-of-mind that I won't be arrested if my OWB holster is revealed. Heck, It's a great conversation tool as well...
I'd probably go all-out on July 4th, though... Colt Cowboy SAA .45 in a leather belt holster, amond cowboy hat, boots and red, white and blue on the truck.

Although, I'll put my dollar on Harris County Cops adding about 100 lbs. to their badge weight in abuse and harassment.

[SlowDave]

Very good discussion. I'm new here and will err on the side of giving the utmost respect to the cops and volunteering my CHL. I know there are bad cops out there, but choose to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume I've met a good one until I have a reason to believe otherwise. The same process I hope they'll take with me. Does that expose me to risk of disarming from a "bubba cop"? Sure. That's not nearly as bad as me not telling them that I'm carrying, them spotting a gun, and a nervous cop making a huge mistake. I like to make it as easy as possible on these guys who walk up to every car window with the possibility of getting shot by some drug pinhead. It might be wrong, but it's my way.

BTW, I have been pulled over once since obtaining my CHL (for rolling a stop sign in my neighborhood), produced my CHL, responded to the officer's question that yes, I was carrying (in the saddlebag of my motorcycle), was treated very professionally, even had a conversation about handgun selection (his Glock compared to my S&W), and was let off with a warning. Hopefully, they all go that well. (Or there are no more stops--even better.)

Elvis and other decent peace officers, THANKS for what you do everyday!!!

SlowDave

[tarkus]

This is one of the reasons I probably won't renew my CHL. I can carry at home and at work and at the deer lease and when I'm driving without a CHL.

So, you never go anywhere except home, work, or your deer lease? Or can you conduct 100% of your errands while seated in your car?

I can do most of them on the internet but next year maybe I should pay $20 and wait 10 days to get a PA license instead of paying $70 and waiting months for a TX renewal. That covers me running errands but nothing shows up in the computer if I forget to show it.

[jlangton]

I think the biggest problem we have here is the fact that alot of CHL holders are apprehensive about being disarmed like a criminal during a routine traffic stop. I am absolutely against an officer disarming me in that situation. I feel that disarming me is an insult and it can cause issues if persons that you know(persons you work with,etc.) DO NOT know that you are a CHL holder. If they see you being disarmed on the side of the road,then it's pretty apparent that you carry a gun. In some situations,that can cause problems. IMO-there should be a set standard for disarming a CHL holder during a traffic stop,and it should be a written standard,not something left up to an officer's "discretion".
JL

[WildBill]

IMO-there should be a set standard for disarming a CHL holder during a traffic stop,and it should be a written standard, not something left up to an officer's "discretion". JL

There is a set and written standard. It may be vague and you may not like it, but it is a written standard.
If you could change the law, how would you write it to make it less vague and arbitrary?

[KBCraig]

IMO-there should be a set standard for disarming a CHL holder during a traffic stop,and it should be a written standard, not something left up to an officer's "discretion". JL

There is a set and written standard. It may be vague and you may not like it, but it is a written standard.
If you could change the law, how would you write it to make it less vague and arbitrary?

The written standard doesn't need to be changed, it needs to be obeyed.

[lunchbox]

IMO-there should be a set standard for disarming a CHL holder during a traffic stop,and it should be a written standard, not something left up to an officer's "discretion". JL

There is a set and written standard. It may be vague and you may not like it, but it is a written standard.
If you could change the law, how would you write it to make it less vague and arbitrary?

The written standard doesn't need to be changed, it needs to be obeyed.

[hankintexas]

It really doesn't bother me to show my CHL to the police. It usually puts them at ease because they realize they are dealing with a decent person who should not be a threat to them.
It has actually gotten some people off without a citation.

It actually helped me this morning. No ticket and no official warning.

[flintknapper]

It really doesn't bother me to show my CHL to the police. It usually puts them at ease because they realize they are dealing with a decent person who should not be a threat to them.
It has actually gotten some people off without a citation.

It actually helped me this morning. No ticket and no official warning.

I've been stopped three times in the dozen years I've had my CHL, each time the officer took a cursory look at the CHL and immediately handed it back, each time I was issued verbal warnings. I think I can attribute that to courtesy and cooperation on my part (as well as innocuous offenses) more than having a CHL, but it couldn't hurt having one.

By no means do I expect or deserve any extra measure of discretion just because I have a CHL, but I do think some LEO cut us some slack. I love those guys! (figuratively)


BTW, please thank your family for the proud and selfless service they have given all of us and this country!

[Mach1]

I don't know, guys.. I think my hat is off to Elvis and has co-workers.
Middle of a dark night, 100 miles from backup, pulling over a car with tinted windows I can't see into...

I don't think I have enough gut power to do that job..

If I did have enough gut power to do the job, part of me would be clinched up pretty tight..

So, I'm gonna do what ever I can to make the officer feel at ease.