New Pocket Gun KelTec P9

[The Annoyed Man]

I have carried a PF9 since about 2011. Initially had problems with WWB and SB ammo. All others worked great. Last year I noticed a small crack starting on the slide and sent it back to KelTec. They replaced the entire gun and the replacement has been outstanding. No FTE's or any other "jams". The quality of the bluing is much better also. Overall, I'd buy another if I had the need.
I quit the KTOG board so I haven't kept up with what's going on with KT's products now

See, here's the problem.

First of all, if a gun doesn't like one brand of ammo that's one thing. If you start striking out various makes, that's a problem.

More importantly, a slide should not crack, especially after two years. Of course they sent you a new one. It was defective and if they didn't and you continued to use it and blew your hand off you would have a serious liability suit against them. They make them so cheaply that they can still fully replace guns and turn a profit.

THIS ^^

And the thing is, with a pocket carried gun, even with a pocket holster, that gun is going to get nasty pretty quickly. Lint, sweat, dirt, you name it.....whatever gets into your pocket gets into your gun. Me? I'm not ashamed to say that during the summer months I'm a big time baby powder guy. If you've got anything like that on your body, it's going to get on your gun - even in a belt holster - along with any other dust and schmutz. So, a stainless steel slide is important to me, and all of the various pistols I carry either have stainless slides and polymer frames, or are manufactured of a non-ferrous metal.

• XDM-45 Compact 3.8 - stainless slide & barrel, polymer frame
• XDS-45 3.3 - stainless slide & barrel, polymer frame
• PM9 - "black diamond" coated stainless slide, polymer frame (BTW, mine is the "black with night sights version, MSRP $987)
• M&P45 Full Size - melonite coated stainless slide, polymer frame
• M&P340 .357 - scandium frame, melonite coated stainless steel cylinder

Type of metal and coatings are something you will want to consider in purchasing a pocketable pistol.

And by the way, the Glock site is back up, and here are the specs on the Glock 43:
http://us.glock.com/products/model/g43

9x19 / Safe Action
Dimensions
LENGTH:
159 mm / 6.26 in.
WIDTH:
26 mm / 1.02 in.
LENGTH BETWEEN SIGHTS:
132 mm / 5.20 in
HEIGHT:
108 mm / 4.25 in.
BARREL HEIGHT:
n/a
BARREL LENGTH:
86 mm / 3.39 in.

Weights
UNLOADED:
509 g / 17.95 oz.
LOADED:
634 g / 22.36 oz.
Trigger Pull / Travel
TRIGGER PULL:
~2.5 kg / ~5.5 lbs.
TRIGGER TRAVEL:
~12.5 mm / ~0.49 in.
Barrel Rifling / Length of Twist
BARREL RIFLING:
right hand, hexagonal
LENGTH OF TWIST:
250 mm / 9.84 in.
Magazine Capacity:
STANDARD: 6
MSRP: $529

If I didn't already own a pocketable 9mm, I would give that Glock a long hard look.

[ralewis]

I have carried a PF9 since about 2011. Initially had problems with WWB and SB ammo. All others worked great. Last year I noticed a small crack starting on the slide and sent it back to KelTec. They replaced the entire gun and the replacement has been outstanding. No FTE's or any other "jams". The quality of the bluing is much better also. Overall, I'd buy another if I had the need.
I quit the KTOG board so I haven't kept up with what's going on with KT's products now

See, here's the problem.

First of all, if a gun doesn't like one brand of ammo that's one thing. If you start striking out various makes, that's a problem.

More importantly, a slide should not crack, especially after two years. Of course they sent you a new one. It was defective and if they didn't and you continued to use it and blew your hand off you would have a serious liability suit against them. They make them so cheaply that they can still fully replace guns and turn a profit.

THIS ^^

And the thing is, with a pocket carried gun, even with a pocket holster, that gun is going to get nasty pretty quickly. Lint, sweat, dirt, you name it.....whatever gets into your pocket gets into your gun. Me? I'm not ashamed to say that during the summer months I'm a big time baby powder guy. If you've got anything like that on your body, it's going to get on your gun - even in a belt holster - along with any other dust and schmutz. So, a stainless steel slide is important to me, and all of the various pistols I carry either have stainless slides and polymer frames, or are manufactured of a non-ferrous metal.

• XDM-45 Compact 3.8 - stainless slide & barrel, polymer frame
• XDS-45 3.3 - stainless slide & barrel, polymer frame
• PM9 - "black diamond" coated stainless slide, polymer frame (BTW, mine is the "black with night sights version, MSRP $987)
• M&P45 Full Size - melonite coated stainless slide, polymer frame
• M&P340 .357 - scandium frame, melonite coated stainless steel cylinder

Type of metal and coatings are something you will want to consider in purchasing a pocketable pistol.

And by the way, the Glock site is back up, and here are the specs on the Glock 43:
http://us.glock.com/products/model/g43
[ Image ]
9x19 / Safe Action
Dimensions
LENGTH:
159 mm / 6.26 in.
WIDTH:
26 mm / 1.02 in.
LENGTH BETWEEN SIGHTS:
132 mm / 5.20 in
HEIGHT:
108 mm / 4.25 in.
BARREL HEIGHT:
n/a
BARREL LENGTH:
86 mm / 3.39 in.

Weights
UNLOADED:
509 g / 17.95 oz.
LOADED:
634 g / 22.36 oz.
Trigger Pull / Travel
TRIGGER PULL:
~2.5 kg / ~5.5 lbs.
TRIGGER TRAVEL:
~12.5 mm / ~0.49 in.
Barrel Rifling / Length of Twist
BARREL RIFLING:
right hand, hexagonal
LENGTH OF TWIST:
250 mm / 9.84 in.
Magazine Capacity:
STANDARD: 6
MSRP: $529

If I didn't already own a pocketable 9mm, I would give that Glock a long hard look.

Thanks TAM and other for all the great info. I too have concerns about the KelTec (had FTE's over the years when at the range). I'll go and browse a bit and see what seems to work best. Not terribly price sensitive, so my motivation to consider the KelTecP9 was mostly just familiarity and being used to KelTec. Don't have any serious loyalty though. Just looking for something that works for what how i want to carry.

[ShootDontTalk]

Nothing personal here but.....I always find it fascinating when people who have zero actual experience with something pontificate based solely on what they read on that bastion of truth, the Internet. I dare say 15 minutes searching will turn up lots of negative comments on almost everything ever made. Most people who have been around guns for a while know that every major manufacturer has problems now and then. Some use customers for their QA. Tell me I'm mistaken.

In my nearly 6 decades of shooting I have owned, or shot, almost everything ever made. I've had good and bad. I have owned and shot two PF-9's for over 10 years - each. I haven't experienced any of the maladies spoken of here. I have several thousand rounds through one and around 1000 through the other. Never a problem of any kind. Period. Have some had problems with theirs? I'm sure. Show me a brand that no one has ever not had a problem with.

Would I compare a PF-9 to my finest 1911, Glock, Sig, or other gun that costs 2 to 10 times more? No. Is there a reason I wouldn't trust my life to my PF9's? No, because I have in the past. It always goes bang when I pull the trigger. I usually carry one as a backup, but not because it is not capable. Bottom line. The PF-9 is perfectly serviceable for its intended purpose and, at $250, is one of the great bargains of the gun world.

If you buy one, go shoot lots of rounds through it and make sure it works. If you have a problem, send it back. Kel-Tec is a stand up company. Just don't openly carry it to BBQ's.

I suspect some may get all bunched up over this. That's okay. I've spent a little over 25 years with two PF-9's. I know a little bit about them.

[TVGuy]

Nothing personal here but.....I always find it fascinating when people who have zero actual experience with something pontificate based solely on what they read on that bastion of truth, the Internet. I dare say 15 minutes searching will turn up lots of negative comments on almost everything ever made. Most people who have been around guns for a while know that every major manufacturer has problems now and then. Some use customers for their QA. Tell me I'm mistaken.

In my nearly 6 decades of shooting I have owned, or shot, almost everything ever made. I've had good and bad. I have owned and shot two PF-9's for over 10 years - each. I haven't experienced any of the maladies spoken of here. I have several thousand rounds through one and around 1000 through the other. Never a problem of any kind. Period. Have some had problems with theirs? I'm sure. Show me a brand that no one has ever not had a problem with.

Would I compare a PF-9 to my finest 1911, Glock, Sig, or other gun that costs 2 to 10 times more? No. Is there a reason I wouldn't trust my life to my PF9's? No, because I have in the past. It always goes bang when I pull the trigger. I usually carry one as a backup, but not because it is not capable. Bottom line. The PF-9 is perfectly serviceable for its intended purpose and, at $250, is one of the great bargains of the gun world.

If you buy one, go shoot lots of rounds through it and make sure it works. If you have a problem, send it back. Kel-Tec is a stand up company. Just don't openly carry it to BBQ's.

I suspect some may get all bunched up over this. That's okay. I've spent a little over 25 years with two PF-9's. I know a little bit about them.

I'm not "bunched up", but how do you know we haven't had any experience with them? I've shot them, been w/ them on the range, and seen them malfunction in person.

See underlined section above. I've never owned a gun with reliability issues to the degree I had to "shoot lots of rounds to make sure it works". You've just made our point. I wouldn't put my life on the line for a product like that if I didn't have to.

I break-in my guns before I carry them, but I've never had a case where I had to make sure it worked.

[Javier730]

Nothing personal here but.....I always find it fascinating when people who have zero actual experience with something pontificate based solely on what they read on that bastion of truth, the Internet. I dare say 15 minutes searching will turn up lots of negative comments on almost everything ever made. Most people who have been around guns for a while know that every major manufacturer has problems now and then. Some use customers for their QA. Tell me I'm mistaken.

In my nearly 6 decades of shooting I have owned, or shot, almost everything ever made. I've had good and bad. I have owned and shot two PF-9's for over 10 years - each. I haven't experienced any of the maladies spoken of here. I have several thousand rounds through one and around 1000 through the other. Never a problem of any kind. Period. Have some had problems with theirs? I'm sure. Show me a brand that no one has ever not had a problem with.

Would I compare a PF-9 to my finest 1911, Glock, Sig, or other gun that costs 2 to 10 times more? No. Is there a reason I wouldn't trust my life to my PF9's? No, because I have in the past. It always goes bang when I pull the trigger. I usually carry one as a backup, but not because it is not capable. Bottom line. The PF-9 is perfectly serviceable for its intended purpose and, at $250, is one of the great bargains of the gun world.

If you buy one, go shoot lots of rounds through it and make sure it works. If you have a problem, send it back. Kel-Tec is a stand up company. Just don't openly carry it to BBQ's.

I suspect some may get all bunched up over this. That's okay. I've spent a little over 25 years with two PF-9's. I know a little bit about them.

I don't think there are negative comments being made. All that being mentioned its that for a little more money, he can get a better quality firearm.

[jmra]

A Glock 43 can be found for $358 on a regular basis, don't trust your life with a pistol that is known for nothing other than problems like a PF9. (There are also other options that have been pointed out)

Most people I've seen can't put 200 rounds through that gun without breaking it. Watch some YouTube reviews and /or shoot it at the range and see if you can get any more usage out of it.

I was always under the impression that Kel Tecs were only sold on the black market in the hands of criminals.

Sorry, couldn't hold back!

I think that $358 price on the G43 is Blue label pricing.

I think you're right. Need. More. Coffee.

I stand on my point though. Even at $450 it's a better value.

the G43 will be my next purchase.

[TVGuy]

Nothing personal here but.....I always find it fascinating when people who have zero actual experience with something pontificate based solely on what they read on that bastion of truth, the Internet. I dare say 15 minutes searching will turn up lots of negative comments on almost everything ever made. Most people who have been around guns for a while know that every major manufacturer has problems now and then. Some use customers for their QA. Tell me I'm mistaken.

In my nearly 6 decades of shooting I have owned, or shot, almost everything ever made. I've had good and bad. I have owned and shot two PF-9's for over 10 years - each. I haven't experienced any of the maladies spoken of here. I have several thousand rounds through one and around 1000 through the other. Never a problem of any kind. Period. Have some had problems with theirs? I'm sure. Show me a brand that no one has ever not had a problem with.

Would I compare a PF-9 to my finest 1911, Glock, Sig, or other gun that costs 2 to 10 times more? No. Is there a reason I wouldn't trust my life to my PF9's? No, because I have in the past. It always goes bang when I pull the trigger. I usually carry one as a backup, but not because it is not capable. Bottom line. The PF-9 is perfectly serviceable for its intended purpose and, at $250, is one of the great bargains of the gun world.

If you buy one, go shoot lots of rounds through it and make sure it works. If you have a problem, send it back. Kel-Tec is a stand up company. Just don't openly carry it to BBQ's.

I suspect some may get all bunched up over this. That's okay. I've spent a little over 25 years with two PF-9's. I know a little bit about them.

I don't think there are negative comments being made. All that being mentioned its that for a little more money, he can get a better quality firearm.

I'll admit my comments were negative, it's nothing personal. He asked for opinions on a Kel Tec P9 and he's received plenty. What the OP does with the comments is completely up to them.

If my wife or other family member bought a P9 with the intent of it being all that stood between them and a really bad situation I'd strongly admonish them. I wouldn't do so to anyone on this board, but will give an opinion about a firearm if someone asks.

[TVGuy]

A Glock 43 can be found for $358 on a regular basis, don't trust your life with a pistol that is known for nothing other than problems like a PF9. (There are also other options that have been pointed out)

Most people I've seen can't put 200 rounds through that gun without breaking it. Watch some YouTube reviews and /or shoot it at the range and see if you can get any more usage out of it.

I was always under the impression that Kel Tecs were only sold on the black market in the hands of criminals.

Sorry, couldn't hold back!

I think that $358 price on the G43 is Blue label pricing.

I think you're right. Need. More. Coffee.

I stand on my point though. Even at $450 it's a better value.

the G43 will be my next purchase.

I like it too. Trying to decide between that and a VP9. Different category, but been eyeing the H&K for a while and I already have a G 42 I rarely use.

[ralewis]

Nothing personal here but.....I always find it fascinating when people who have zero actual experience with something pontificate based solely on what they read on that bastion of truth, the Internet. I dare say 15 minutes searching will turn up lots of negative comments on almost everything ever made. Most people who have been around guns for a while know that every major manufacturer has problems now and then. Some use customers for their QA. Tell me I'm mistaken.

In my nearly 6 decades of shooting I have owned, or shot, almost everything ever made. I've had good and bad. I have owned and shot two PF-9's for over 10 years - each. I haven't experienced any of the maladies spoken of here. I have several thousand rounds through one and around 1000 through the other. Never a problem of any kind. Period. Have some had problems with theirs? I'm sure. Show me a brand that no one has ever not had a problem with.

Would I compare a PF-9 to my finest 1911, Glock, Sig, or other gun that costs 2 to 10 times more? No. Is there a reason I wouldn't trust my life to my PF9's? No, because I have in the past. It always goes bang when I pull the trigger. I usually carry one as a backup, but not because it is not capable. Bottom line. The PF-9 is perfectly serviceable for its intended purpose and, at $250, is one of the great bargains of the gun world.

If you buy one, go shoot lots of rounds through it and make sure it works. If you have a problem, send it back. Kel-Tec is a stand up company. Just don't openly carry it to BBQ's.

I suspect some may get all bunched up over this. That's okay. I've spent a little over 25 years with two PF-9's. I know a little bit about them.

I don't think there are negative comments being made. All that being mentioned its that for a little more money, he can get a better quality firearm.

I'll admit my comments were negative, it's nothing personal. He asked for opinions on a Kel Tec P9 and he's received plenty. What the OP does with the comments is completely up to them.

If my wife or other family member bought a P9 with the intent of it being all that stood between them and a really bad situation I'd strongly admonish them. I wouldn't do so to anyone on this board, but will give an opinion about a firearm if someone asks.

No worries on negative comments. If I didn't suspect there may be some for the gun I mentioned, I'd not have asked. I have a G27, KahrPM40, Keltic P3AT and am looking for something as small as the P3AT but in a 9mm. I like to pocket carry, and P3AT is great for that. Kahr PM40 is ok for pocket carry but just a little too big.

Lots of information provided, and I greatly appreciate any /all feedback. I've got my list of candidates now, and the feedback was very helpful.

[The Annoyed Man]

ralewis, check this out: viewtopic.php?f=20&t=77609" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[ShootDontTalk]

I am pretty sure I didn't name any names. I spoke of people who have spent years owning and using something versus those who have seen someone have a problem during a range visit or watched a YouTube video or rented one for a day at a range. You are free to draw your own conclusions about that. I don't make value judgements based on superficial experience. YMMV

Interesting that a complaint is made about shooting a gun "lots" of times to verify functionality before trusting your life to it. Perhaps I missed something. "Lots", at least the last time I looked it up, doesn't have a specific number attached to it. Use whatever number you're comfortable with. I'm fine with that. It's your life.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable, argumentative, or ruffle any feathers. The ultimate purpose of an EDC is to save your life. As long as it will do that, I'm happy. There is no prize for saving your life with the most, or least, expensive gun. Just saving your life. End of story.

[The Annoyed Man]

Nothing personal here but.....I always find it fascinating when people who have zero actual experience with something pontificate based solely on what they read on that bastion of truth, the Internet. I dare say 15 minutes searching will turn up lots of negative comments on almost everything ever made. Most people who have been around guns for a while know that every major manufacturer has problems now and then. Some use customers for their QA. Tell me I'm mistaken.

WRT this thread's topic, I posted a bunch of manufacturers' information, including Kel-Tec's.

I have owned a Kel-Tec, a P3AT, and I found it disappointing. But, it wasn't a P9, so I can't speak to that gun's reliability. That said, when compared to a lot of other guns in that market niche of affordable pocket guns, the Kel-Tecs that I've handled were not as well-made as the competition's. Mine used to pop the magazine out from the grip almost every time I carried it, and sometimes even when I shot it. It was painful to shoot because it kept barking the knuckles of my trigger finger. The sights were, for practical purposes, non-existent. It was strictly a "belly gun". Being a hammer fired semiauto, it was problematic for firing from a jacket pocket or through a purse (for my wife). And, the takedown process, while simple to understand, was difficult to execute. On the upside, it was dirt cheap. So, if dirt cheap is all you can afford, then you can still arm yourself by purchasing a small Kel-Tec. That's not a bad thing. People with less money should have access to affordable guns.

Kel-Tec has developed a few interesting and innovative guns, among them, the RFB bullpup .308 rifle, the RDB bullpup 5.56 NATO rifle, the KSG shotgun, and the PMR-30 .22 Magnum pistol. Against that record of innovation, they have never been able to meet the production demands of the market for their innovations; consequently the guns in question tended to hit the market at FAR more than their actual value as a firearm. And then there were issues with build quality once the production units actually went out to the retail buyers. When your bullpup rifle has an MSRP of $1,929.00, and people are lining up to pay $2,300 for one, you'd hope they actually ran reliably out of the box. Then, when the word gets out that the model in question is overpriced and underperforms, the demand falls off and customers start looking at other brands. My son has worked in a gun store for a couple of years now, and there has been a KSG shotgun in the display counter since day one. The owner managed to get 3 or 4 of them into the store back when they first came out and were rare as hen's teeth, but when the novelty wore off, he wasn't able to move all of them, and now who wants a 2 year old KSG, when the owner has to sell it at a certain price that nobody wants to pay for them anymore?

It strikes me that Kel-Tec is probably very underfunded. They are able to mass-produce cheap guns for a profit, but they're up against a two edged sword because 1) while profitable, the quality of their small carry guns just isn't there to justify prices higher than they are already charging for them; and 2) there isn't enough profit from the sale of the cheap handguns to fund bringing to market their "premium" products like the RFB and RDB. ALSO, they've been designing/advertising/selling higher end items for several years now. To walk away from that market segment is to admit defeat, which no company can afford to do without taking a hit to the company's value.......plus, to walk away from that market is to tell all those customers who did pay too much for your products that you won't support those products anymore in terms of parts and services. That would hurt their pistol sales.

So, Kel-Tec is in a bind, in my humble opinion. They can't afford to charge more for their pistols because they're not worth more. I understand the vision - to sell cheap affordable guns - but it turns out to be a flawed business plan. Because they can't charge more, they can't afford to sink capital into selling better guns. So they are stuck.

I won't even get into the details of KEL-TEC KABOOMS.

My own dislike for the brand isn't because I'm a brand snob. It is because I'm looking at it like a businessman. I see a gun company that in practical terms could have made better guns, but it doesn't. And it doesn't because it's business model has trapped it into not being able to. Innovation is a good thing, but even gun designers like JMB and Stoner found employment with companies that could afford to produce their superior designs. For my money, the smartest thing that Kel-Tec could do at this point would be for them to license their RFB and RD8 designs to another company that can afford to produce them in quantities with prices set to economies of scale under a more "reputable" brand-name, collect all those royalties and plow them back into significantly upgrading their pistol line to appeal to a market that is willing to pay more for a better pistol. But that's just me.

[ShootDontTalk]

My own dislike for the brand isn't because I'm a brand snob. It is because I'm looking at it like a businessman. I see a gun company that in practical terms could have made better guns, but it doesn't. And it doesn't because it's business model has trapped it into not being able to. Innovation is a good thing, but even gun designers like JMB and Stoner found employment with companies that could afford to produce their superior designs. For my money, the smartest thing that Kel-Tec could do at this point would be for them to license their RFB and RD8 designs to another company that can afford to produce them in quantities with prices set to economies of scale under a more "reputable" brand-name, collect all those royalties and plow them back into significantly upgrading their pistol line to appeal to a market that is willing to pay more for a better pistol. But that's just me.

I get your point, but I just don't see self defense as a business proposition. If that were the case, I'd have a whole world of problems with Smith & Wesson and a lot of others. As I stated, to me EDC is only about one thing. How much better would a more expensive product save my life?

[jason812]

Another often over looked pistol in the same size is the Walther PPS but its an upper 4 to mid $500 purchase.

[ralewis]

Any opinions on Taurus TCP?