Discharged "under honorable conditions" = not "honorably"

[G26ster]

I have followed this thread but hesitated in joining it as I'm a bit confused with some of the things being said. So, let me ask a hypothetical question and see if I can wrap my head around this discussion.

Let's say a person joins the military, completes their basic training, goes on to advanced training in a specialty, and then half way through that training, is found to have a previously undiscovered disqualifying medical condition, and are discharged because of it. Are they given an "Honorable Discharge" or a "General Discharge" - under honorable conditions?"

[anygunanywhere]

I have read every post on this thread and contributed several.

No one here has judged the OP. He received a General discharge. No one has denigrated him for his service. No one has placed their service above his.

The DPS requires an Honorable to receive the Veteran designation on a CHL.

It does not matter what the VA, VFW, or American Legion (I am a member) say. They do not determine what the DPS does. The Texas legislature passed the law.

[ScooterSissy]

I have read every post on this thread and contributed several.

No one here has judged the OP. He received a General discharge. No one has denigrated him for his service. No one has placed their service above his.

The DPS requires an Honorable to receive the Veteran designation on a CHL.

It does not matter what the VA, VFW, or American Legion (I am a member) say. They do not determine what the DPS does. The Texas legislature passed the law.

Sorry, but that's not what the rules state. They require only that the applicant be "honorably discharged" (I know that may sound picky, but there is a difference).
The OP indicated several posts back that the DPS now accepts "general under honorable" as "honorably discharged".

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/d ... hedule.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Veteran (Honorably Discharged)
Individuals honorably discharged from military service

(The emphasis on "honorably" is theirs)

The point I've tried to make several times now, is that it appears that "honorably" is a description, not an official designation.

I've not been able to find anything online that confirms this specific to a CHL, but I'll point out the following.

On the DPS web site (the DPS is the agency that handles CHL), they have a "Veteran Services" page. (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/driverlice ... rvices.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) That page also uses the term "honorably discharged"; however, they specifically address what qualifies as "honorably discharge". Please note the portion that is in bold:

Veterans must visit a driver license office and present their DD-214, DD-215, NGB-22, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs disability letter, or U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Proof of Service/Verification of Honorable Service Card. The document can be a copy or an original, but it must show that the veteran received an honorable discharge or a general discharge (under honorable conditions). The veteran must provide a written request for the designation.

This is for the benefit of receiving a driver's license without paying a fee. In this case, the DPS specifically says that a general under honorable conditions qualifies as "honorably discharged" (the term is used in the paragraph immediately before the one shown).

I think this makes it pretty clear that the DPS intended to include those who received a "general discharge under honorable conditions" as "honorably discharged".

BTW, I wasn't aware that vets could get a free driver's license. I'll likely avail myself of that benefit as well.

[o b juan]

I have two discharges 8/14/56 and 5/21/61
the first one i was 16 years and 3 months old Honorble on the DD214
the second 20 years 11 month old honorble on DD214 with G C Medal

My mother had the Actuals I dont know where she she got them.. I had 2 article 15's and a summary court with a 50 dolllar
fine no loss of rank.. The thin blue line saved me MOS 951.10

I knew the "Code of Military justice" they taught us @ the MP School 58'

[loren]

I have read every post on this thread and contributed several.

No one here has judged the OP. He received a General discharge. No one has denigrated him for his service. No one has placed their service above his.

The DPS requires an Honorable to receive the Veteran designation on a CHL.

It does not matter what the VA, VFW, or American Legion (I am a member) say. They do not determine what the DPS does. The Texas legislature passed the law.

Of course it matters, those organizations (especially the USDVA) invented the term. It would make no sense to deviate from established terminology without being specific. And a very responsible member of the Texas legislature has recently demanded that it be enforced as intended. If you'd like to see the law changed, let your state Representative and Senator know.

Note that the requirements for the word "veteran" on a Texas driver's license clearly allow General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions as qualifying when the term "honorably discharged" is used there. Is that ok?

Your American Legion's constitution uses the term "honorably discharged" and official membership eligibility includes General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions. Is that ok?

The original question was not about who deserves what - but what does the Texas law really mean? It has been clarified to my satisfaction, with DPS policy corrected to include General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions as honorably discharged for the veteran's discount. As I mentioned earlier my reason for challenging DPS policy was not to save a few bucks but to dispute the idea that I was not honorably discharged.

Those with a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions, have honorably served and been honorably discharged according to veterans organizations, the laws of this state, and now even DPS. Believe it or not.

[anygunanywhere]

I have read every post on this thread and contributed several.

No one here has judged the OP. He received a General discharge. No one has denigrated him for his service. No one has placed their service above his.

The DPS requires an Honorable to receive the Veteran designation on a CHL.

It does not matter what the VA, VFW, or American Legion (I am a member) say. They do not determine what the DPS does. The Texas legislature passed the law.

Sorry, but that's not what the rules state. They require only that the applicant be "honorably discharged" (I know that may sound picky, but there is a difference).
The OP indicated several posts back that the DPS now accepts "general under honorable" as "honorably discharged".

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/d ... hedule.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Veteran (Honorably Discharged)
Individuals honorably discharged from military service

(The emphasis on "honorably" is theirs)

The point I've tried to make several times now, is that it appears that "honorably" is a description, not an official designation.

I've not been able to find anything online that confirms this specific to a CHL, but I'll point out the following.

On the DPS web site (the DPS is the agency that handles CHL), they have a "Veteran Services" page. (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/driverlice ... rvices.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) That page also uses the term "honorably discharged"; however, they specifically address what qualifies as "honorably discharge". Please note the portion that is in bold:

Veterans must visit a driver license office and present their DD-214, DD-215, NGB-22, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs disability letter, or U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Proof of Service/Verification of Honorable Service Card. The document can be a copy or an original, but it must show that the veteran received an honorable discharge or a general discharge (under honorable conditions). The veteran must provide a written request for the designation.

This is for the benefit of receiving a driver's license without paying a fee. In this case, the DPS specifically says that a general under honorable conditions qualifies as "honorably discharged" (the term is used in the paragraph immediately before the one shown).

I think this makes it pretty clear that the DPS intended to include those who received a "general discharge under honorable conditions" as "honorably discharged".

BTW, I wasn't aware that vets could get a free driver's license. I'll likely avail myself of that benefit as well.

You have to be at least 60% disabled to have the fee waived.

[baldeagle]

Those with a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions, have honorably served and been honorably discharged according to veterans organizations, the laws of this state, and now even DPS. Believe it or not.

Right here is where you go off the rails and is what has caused all the contention in this thread. You were NOT honorably discharged, and no amount of parsing of words will change that. You have no right to claim you were honorably discharged, and doing so is offensive to many who have served and been honorably discharged. You received a General Discharge under Honorable Conditions. What this precisely means only you can say, and you clearly have not done so, despite repeated requests. (You have every right to keep the details of your discharge private.) A General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions means that you did something wrong, which caused your discharge, but it did not rise to the level of a Dishonorable or Bad Conduct Discharge.

If a service member’s performance is satisfactory but the individual failed to meet all expectations of conduct for military members, the discharge is considered a general discharge. To receive a general discharge from the military there has to be some form of nonjudicial punishment to correct unacceptable military behavior. A general military discharge is a form of administrative discharge.

Note the use of the phrase "failed to meet all expectations of conduct". Those who are honorably discharged have succeeded in meeting all expectations of conduct. You have not. Out of respect for those who have served honorably, you ought not to describe yourself as "honorably discharged" no matter who is willing to grant you benefits for your service.

General (Under Honorable Conditions). If a member's service has been honest and faithful, it is appropriate to characterize that service under honorable conditions. Characterization of service as General (under honorable conditions) is warranted when significant negative aspects of the member's conduct or performance of duty outweigh positive aspects of the member's military conduct or performance of duty outweigh positive aspects of the record. A General (under honorable conditions) characterization of discharge may jeopardize a member's ability to benefit from the Montgomery G.I. Bill if they, in fact, had contributed. Moreover, the member will not normally be allowed to reenlist or enter a different military service.

Note the use of the phrase "significant negative aspects of the member's conduct or performance".

You did not receive an honorable discharge and were therefore not honorably discharged. Any attempt to characterize your service as honorable is going to irritate those who were honorably discharged, because your service was not honorable. If it had been, you would have received an honorable discharge.

This is akin to saying you were an honor student when you really weren't. It should not come as a surprise if some take offense to that. Especially those who have held dying friends in their arms or seen them vaporized by high explosive rounds.

[ScooterSissy]

Sorry, but that's not what the rules state. They require only that the applicant be "honorably discharged" (I know that may sound picky, but there is a difference).
The OP indicated several posts back that the DPS now accepts "general under honorable" as "honorably discharged".

https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/RSD/CHL/d ... hedule.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Veteran (Honorably Discharged)
Individuals honorably discharged from military service

(The emphasis on "honorably" is theirs)

The point I've tried to make several times now, is that it appears that "honorably" is a description, not an official designation.

I've not been able to find anything online that confirms this specific to a CHL, but I'll point out the following.

On the DPS web site (the DPS is the agency that handles CHL), they have a "Veteran Services" page. (http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/driverlice ... rvices.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) That page also uses the term "honorably discharged"; however, they specifically address what qualifies as "honorably discharge". Please note the portion that is in bold:

Veterans must visit a driver license office and present their DD-214, DD-215, NGB-22, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs disability letter, or U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Proof of Service/Verification of Honorable Service Card. The document can be a copy or an original, but it must show that the veteran received an honorable discharge or a general discharge (under honorable conditions). The veteran must provide a written request for the designation.

This is for the benefit of receiving a driver's license without paying a fee. In this case, the DPS specifically says that a general under honorable conditions qualifies as "honorably discharged" (the term is used in the paragraph immediately before the one shown).

I think this makes it pretty clear that the DPS intended to include those who received a "general discharge under honorable conditions" as "honorably discharged".

BTW, I wasn't aware that vets could get a free driver's license. I'll likely avail myself of that benefit as well.

You have to be at least 60% disabled to have the fee waived.

You are correct. I didn't read up at the top about the additional requirements (I only got two out of four).

I hope we can agree, they (the DPS) are pretty clear about what they mean when they use the term "honorably discharged".

[ScooterSissy]

Those with a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions, have honorably served and been honorably discharged according to veterans organizations, the laws of this state, and now even DPS. Believe it or not.

Right here is where you go off the rails and is what has caused all the contention in this thread. You were NOT honorably discharged, and no amount of parsing of words will change that. You have no right to claim you were honorably discharged, and doing so is offensive to many who have served and been honorably discharged. You received a General Discharge under Honorable Conditions. What this precisely means only you can say, and you clearly have not done so, despite repeated requests. (You have every right to keep the details of your discharge private.) A General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions means that you did something wrong, which caused your discharge, but it did not rise to the level of a Dishonorable or Bad Conduct Discharge.

The DPS doesn't use the term "Honorable Discharge", they use the term "honorably discharged". Unless you (or someone else) can show a DD214 that uses the exact term "honorably discharged", then I think it's more than fair to say, that it is the Texas DPS that is "parsing words"; and they have made it pretty clear what they mean by the term.

[baldeagle]

Those with a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions, have honorably served and been honorably discharged according to veterans organizations, the laws of this state, and now even DPS. Believe it or not.

Right here is where you go off the rails and is what has caused all the contention in this thread. You were NOT honorably discharged, and no amount of parsing of words will change that. You have no right to claim you were honorably discharged, and doing so is offensive to many who have served and been honorably discharged. You received a General Discharge under Honorable Conditions. What this precisely means only you can say, and you clearly have not done so, despite repeated requests. (You have every right to keep the details of your discharge private.) A General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions means that you did something wrong, which caused your discharge, but it did not rise to the level of a Dishonorable or Bad Conduct Discharge.

The DPS doesn't use the term "Honorable Discharge", they use the term "honorably discharged". Unless you (or someone else) can show a DD214 that uses the exact term "honorably discharged", then I think it's more than fair to say, that it is the Texas DPS that is "parsing words"; and they have made it pretty clear what they mean by the term.

DPS Is making a political decision. It has nothing to do with parsing words. The OP is the one insisting he was honorably discharged and is therefore parsing words.

[ScooterSissy]

Those with a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions, have honorably served and been honorably discharged according to veterans organizations, the laws of this state, and now even DPS. Believe it or not.

Right here is where you go off the rails and is what has caused all the contention in this thread. You were NOT honorably discharged, and no amount of parsing of words will change that. You have no right to claim you were honorably discharged, and doing so is offensive to many who have served and been honorably discharged. You received a General Discharge under Honorable Conditions. What this precisely means only you can say, and you clearly have not done so, despite repeated requests. (You have every right to keep the details of your discharge private.) A General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions means that you did something wrong, which caused your discharge, but it did not rise to the level of a Dishonorable or Bad Conduct Discharge.

The DPS doesn't use the term "Honorable Discharge", they use the term "honorably discharged". Unless you (or someone else) can show a DD214 that uses the exact term "honorably discharged", then I think it's more than fair to say, that it is the Texas DPS that is "parsing words"; and they have made it pretty clear what they mean by the term.

DPS Is making a political decision. It has nothing to do with parsing words. The OP is the one insisting he was honorably discharged and is therefore parsing words.

Sorry man, but (in my opinion) you're simply wrong. From the very first post, this was about the DPS' interpretation of what the term "honorably discharged" means. DPS' requirement was not for an "Honorable Discharge", but only that one be "honorably discharged", which would appear to be a description.

You may believe that DPS made a "political decision", but I see nothing to back that up. Does your DD214 say, anywhere on it "honorably discharged"? My father was in the Army for 22 years (and was stationed in Germany when, and where, I was born), so I grew up with this stuff. I've never heard someone say "he was generally discharged". If "honorably discharged" is simply a descriptive term, then "General under honorable conditions" would qualify, but "General under less than honorable" would not.


The OP has made no claim even close to

[casp625]

Those with a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions, have honorably served and been honorably discharged according to veterans organizations, the laws of this state, and now even DPS. Believe it or not.

Right here is where you go off the rails and is what has caused all the contention in this thread. You were NOT honorably discharged, and no amount of parsing of words will change that. You have no right to claim you were honorably discharged, and doing so is offensive to many who have served and been honorably discharged. You received a General Discharge under Honorable Conditions. What this precisely means only you can say, and you clearly have not done so, despite repeated requests. (You have every right to keep the details of your discharge private.) A General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions means that you did something wrong, which caused your discharge, but it did not rise to the level of a Dishonorable or Bad Conduct Discharge.

The DPS doesn't use the term "Honorable Discharge", they use the term "honorably discharged". Unless you (or someone else) can show a DD214 that uses the exact term "honorably discharged", then I think it's more than fair to say, that it is the Texas DPS that is "parsing words"; and they have made it pretty clear what they mean by the term.

Since we are getting very technical, the word *discharge* isn't used anywhere on the 2009 edition of the DD214:


Of course, if you look at the one I just Google searched, you can see it say *discharge* followed by *under honorable conditions* but the narrative states "Unsatisfactory Performance":


But I guess since the DD214 above shows "under honorable conditions" it completely negates the "unsatisfactory performance."

[anygunanywhere]

And everyone gets a trophy, no one keeps score, and there are no winners and losers in the game.

[casp625]

I have followed this thread but hesitated in joining it as I'm a bit confused with some of the things being said. So, let me ask a hypothetical question and see if I can wrap my head around this discussion.

Let's say a person joins the military, completes their basic training, goes on to advanced training in a specialty, and then half way through that training, is found to have a previously undiscovered disqualifying medical condition, and are discharged because of it. Are they given an "Honorable Discharge" or a "General Discharge" - under honorable conditions?"

Depends on if the person intentionally hid the medical condition during enlistment. If you did, you probably would receive a General. However, if you never been to the doctor for the ailment and you didn't receive any disciplinary action, you would get a Honorable once you get med boarded.

[baldeagle]

Those with a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions, have honorably served and been honorably discharged according to veterans organizations, the laws of this state, and now even DPS. Believe it or not.

Right here is where you go off the rails and is what has caused all the contention in this thread. You were NOT honorably discharged, and no amount of parsing of words will change that. You have no right to claim you were honorably discharged, and doing so is offensive to many who have served and been honorably discharged. You received a General Discharge under Honorable Conditions. What this precisely means only you can say, and you clearly have not done so, despite repeated requests. (You have every right to keep the details of your discharge private.) A General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions means that you did something wrong, which caused your discharge, but it did not rise to the level of a Dishonorable or Bad Conduct Discharge.

The DPS doesn't use the term "Honorable Discharge", they use the term "honorably discharged". Unless you (or someone else) can show a DD214 that uses the exact term "honorably discharged", then I think it's more than fair to say, that it is the Texas DPS that is "parsing words"; and they have made it pretty clear what they mean by the term.

DPS Is making a political decision. It has nothing to do with parsing words. The OP is the one insisting he was honorably discharged and is therefore parsing words.

Sorry man, but (in my opinion) you're simply wrong. From the very first post, this was about the DPS' interpretation of what the term "honorably discharged" means. DPS' requirement was not for an "Honorable Discharge", but only that one be "honorably discharged", which would appear to be a description.

You may believe that DPS made a "political decision", but I see nothing to back that up. Does your DD214 say, anywhere on it "honorably discharged"? My father was in the Army for 22 years (and was stationed in Germany when, and where, I was born), so I grew up with this stuff. I've never heard someone say "he was generally discharged". If "honorably discharged" is simply a descriptive term, then "General under honorable conditions" would qualify, but "General under less than honorable" would not.


The OP has made no claim even close to

I don't really care if you agree with me or not. The OP wrote "Those with a General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions, have honorably served and been honorably discharged" and that is false. He did not serve honorably. If he had, he would have received an Honorable Discharge. If he said, those with a General Discharge Under Honorable Conditions are eligible for the veterans discount according to DPS, that would be true and accurate. But that's not what he said.

And yeah, this is a big deal to me. My cousin, Donald Carlson, was KIA in Vietnam, and it matters a great deal to me that people who received General Discharges Under Honorable Conditions do not represent themselves as having served with the same honor and distinction that Donald did.

Since you asked, here's my DD-214 (the relevant part):