Discharged "under honorable conditions" = not "honorably"

[ScooterSissy]

...
...Now we can see 2 different sections that directly address "Honorable Discharge" (Sec 411.1951) and "Honorable Conditions" (Sec 411.172). IANAL, but I'd place my best guess that you can get a Veteran designation on your driver's license, would be eligible for a CHL if you were between 18-21 with a General under Honorable Conditions, are not qualified for a reduced fee. If anyone else would look to provide an interpretation, please do.

I was in the Navy very briefly (didn't finish boot camp). I had ear problems that I told them about when I enlisted, and the recruiting office said it was acceptable. Once I got in, they examined me and said it was not, and discharged me. I fought it, because I didn't want out, but out I went.

I can't find my copy right now, but I'm almost positive my DD214 said "Under Honorable Conditions"; however, I am positive that I received the veteran's discount.

This used to be an uncomfortable situation for me. I had family and friends that served full tours, some 20 and 30 year gigs, and I always felt I was not a vet. One of them cleared it up for me (not completely, but at least comfortably), when he told me "You volunteered to take the oath, you served honorably for as long as they were willing to let your serve. You're a vet."

[Right2Carry]

...
...Now we can see 2 different sections that directly address "Honorable Discharge" (Sec 411.1951) and "Honorable Conditions" (Sec 411.172). IANAL, but I'd place my best guess that you can get a Veteran designation on your driver's license, would be eligible for a CHL if you were between 18-21 with a General under Honorable Conditions, are not qualified for a reduced fee. If anyone else would look to provide an interpretation, please do.

I was in the Navy very briefly (didn't finish boot camp). I had ear problems that I told them about when I enlisted, and the recruiting office said it was acceptable. Once I got in, they examined me and said it was not, and discharged me. I fought it, because I didn't want out, but out I went.

I can't find my copy right now, but I'm almost positive my DD214 said "Under Honorable Conditions"; however, I am positive that I received the veteran's discount.

This used to be an uncomfortable situation for me. I had family and friends that served full tours, some 20 and 30 year gigs, and I always felt I was not a vet. One of them cleared it up for me (not completely, but at least comfortably), when he told me "You volunteered to take the oath, you served honorably for as long as they were willing to let your serve. You're a vet."

Sounds like you received a medical discharge of sorts. The key to a persons discharge lays toward the bottom of the DD214 long form in the form of reenlistment and separation codes.

DPS may look at those to determine if one qualifies for the discount.

[casp625]

Here is a good write-up about the types of discharges, courtesy of The Fort Hood Sentinel:

In general, there are five different types of discharges from the Army: Honorable; General, Under Honorable Conditions; Under Other than Honorable Conditions; Bad Conduct; and Dishonorable. The latter two may only be adjudged as a consequence of either a special or general court-martial conviction pursuant to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Each of these discharges carries a different meaning and can seriously affect veterans’ benefits and employment after service.

Of the five types of discharges, three are available to Soldiers when they are discharged administratively: Honorable, General Under Honorable Conditions, and Under Other than Honorable Conditions.

If you did not receive an Honorable Discharge, then you were not discharge honorably... it was a General with some honorable conditions (read, honorable conditions outweighed the negatives). Now we can dig a little further into the Texas code. According to Texas DPS, you should be able to receive a "Veteran" designation on your driver's license because your DD-214 "must show that the veteran received an honorable discharge or a general discharge (under honorable conditions)."

Now for the CHL portion.
Veteran (Honorably Discharged) is governed under Texas Government Code:

• GC §411.174
• GC §411.1951

Sec. 411.174 APPLICATION:

(9)
(b-1) The application must provide space for the applicant to:
(1) list any military service that may qualify the applicant to receive a license with a veteran's designation under Section 411.179(e); and
(2) include proof required by the department to determine the applicant's eligibility to receive that designation.

Sec. 411.179 FORM OF LICENSE:

(e) In this subsection, "veteran" has the meaning assigned by Section 411.1951. The department shall include the designation "VETERAN" on the face of any original, duplicate, modified, or renewed license under this subchapter or on the reverse side of the license, as determined by the department, if the license is issued to a veteran who:
(1) requests the designation; and
(2) provides proof sufficient to the department of the veteran's military service and honorable discharge.

Sec. 411.1951 WAIVER OR REDUCTION OF FEES FOR MEMBERS OR VETERANS OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES:

(a) In this section, "veteran" means a person who:
(1) has served in:
(A) the army, navy, air force, coast guard, or marine corps of the United States;
(B) the Texas military forces as defined by Section 437.001; or
(C) an auxiliary service of one of those branches of the armed forces; and
(2) has been honorably discharged from the branch of the service in which the person served.

If we look at 411.179 we see it specify "honorable discharge." But wait, if we argue the definition of 411.1951, we once again see "honorably discharged." So now we are trying to redefine the meaning of the word "discharge" because a General (with conditions being honorable) still does not equal an Honorable Discharge. But just to prove the Texas DPS and lawmakers know exactly what they are talking about, let's take a look at Sec. 411.172

Sec. 411.172. ELIGIBILITY:

(g) Notwithstanding Subsection (a)(2), a person who is at least 18 years of age but not yet 21 years of age is eligible for a license to carry a concealed handgun if the person:
(1) is a member or veteran of the United States armed forces, including a member or veteran of the reserves or national guard;
(2) was discharged under honorable conditions, if discharged from the United States armed forces, reserves, or national guard; and
(3) meets the other eligibility requirements of Subsection (a) except for the minimum age required by federal law to purchase a handgun.

Now we can see 2 different sections that directly address "Honorable Discharge" (Sec 411.1951) and "Honorable Conditions" (Sec 411.172). IANAL, but I'd place my best guess that you can get a Veteran designation on your driver's license, would be eligible for a CHL if you were between 18-21 with a General under Honorable Conditions, are not qualified for a reduced fee. If anyone else would look to provide an interpretation, please do.

Nice analysis. Are they purposefully making a distinction between a general discharge under honorable conditions for those 18-21 and those over 21???

No I don't think so. All they are allowing is those 18-21 to be have to get a CHL but just as those who are over 21, the would also be ineligible for the reduced fee.

[loren]

The replies are getting more interesting.

Someone in this thread has shown examples in the law that it can be specific and use the term "honorable discharge" or "under honorable conditions" when a distinction is intended. Thanks!

Someone else has noted that they received the veteran's discount although they thought their DD214 said "under honorable conditions". Thanks!

Someone also thought I was wasting time arguing in this forum and that I should accept their definition of honorably discharged. Well, isn't that what this forum is for... to exchange information, ideas, opinions, suggestions??? I'm guessing that my official appeal will fall on deaf ears and I was curious what others thought. Unfortunately much of the discussion emphasized the merits of an honorable discharge and ignored the actual intended meaning of the law. Oh well...

The funny thing is that my wife and I had Texas CHLs back in the mid 90's and I did not have this problem. (I'm sure if there was a veteran's discount then I would have applied for it but I don't recall the details.)

Thanks for all the inputs. The word "honorably" in the law still seems to me to encompass both "honorable" and "under honorable conditions" discharges. But I could be wrong and it wouldn't be my first time in the last 79 years!

[mojo84]

Sorry you didn't get the exact response for which you were looking. It appears to me you received a less than honorable discharge since it says "under". I think they intend the term under to indicate less than honorable. I don't recall anyone saying you can't or shouldn't discuss it here. I was curious what the DPS said since they are the ones in charge of interpreting the law, managing the program and issuing the licenses. None of us have the authority to set them straight as you seem to wish.

Sorry you got a lower level discharge than honorable discharge. That is between you and the military.

[casp625]

The replies are getting more interesting.

Someone in this thread has shown examples in the law that it can be specific and use the term "honorable discharge" or "under honorable conditions" when a distinction is intended. Thanks!

Someone else has noted that they received the veteran's discount although they thought their DD214 said "under honorable conditions". Thanks!

Someone also thought I was wasting time arguing in this forum and that I should accept their definition of honorably discharged. Well, isn't that what this forum is for... to exchange information, ideas, opinions, suggestions??? I'm guessing that my official appeal will fall on deaf ears and I was curious what others thought. Unfortunately much of the discussion emphasized the merits of an honorable discharge and ignored the actual intended meaning of the law. Oh well...

The funny thing is that my wife and I had Texas CHLs back in the mid 90's and I did not have this problem. (I'm sure if there was a veteran's discount then I would have applied for it but I don't recall the details.)

Thanks for all the inputs. The word "honorably" in the law still seems to me to encompass both "honorable" and "under honorable conditions" discharges. But I could be wrong and it wouldn't be my first time in the last 79 years!

One thing to keep in mind is laws change over the years. The two specific codes I quoted were amended over the years. Specifically, notice how the majority of them were amended in the 2000s.
411.1951

Added by Acts 2005, 79th Leg., Ch. 486 (H.B. 322), Sec. 4, eff. September 1, 2005.
Amended by:
Acts 2007, 80th Leg., R.S., Ch. 200 (H.B. 233), Sec. 1, eff. September 1, 2007.
Acts 2013, 83rd Leg., R.S., Ch. 251 (H.B. 485), Sec. 1, eff. September 1, 2013.
Acts 2013, 83rd Leg., R.S., Ch. 1217 (S.B. 1536), Sec. 3.05, eff. September 1, 2013.

411.174

Added by Acts 1997, 75th Leg., ch. 165, Sec. 10.01(a), eff. Sept. 1, 1997. Amended by Acts 1999, 76th Leg., ch. 62, Sec. 9.06(a), eff. Sept. 1, 1999.
Amended by:
Acts 2005, 79th Leg., Ch. 486 (H.B. 322), Sec. 2, eff. September 1, 2005.
Acts 2009, 81st Leg., R.S., Ch. 1146 (H.B. 2730), Sec. 11.04, eff. September 1, 2009.
Acts 2013, 83rd Leg., R.S., Ch. 396 (S.B. 164), Sec. 1, eff. September 1, 2013.
Acts 2013, 83rd Leg., R.S., Ch. 665 (H.B. 1349), Sec. 2, eff. January 1, 2014.

With that said, are you trying to say you had a CHL in the 90s and now they are saying you aren't qualified? If so, that would be a whole separate issue.

[Right2Carry]

Different types of discharges.

http://military-law.lawyers.com/veteran ... efits.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This doesn't mean you are eligible if the requirement is honorable discharge.

[mojo84]

From the Ft. Hood Sentinel.

http://www.forthoodsentinel.com/story.php?id=8539" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In contrast, a “General, Under Honorable Conditions” Discharge (commonly referred to as a General Discharge) is for service members whose service was satisfactory, but involved situations where the Soldier’s conduct and/or performance of duty were not so meritorious to warrant an Honorable Discharge. Recipients of General Discharges usually have engaged in minor misconduct or have received nonjudicial punishment under Article 15, UCMJ. While the “under honorable conditions” terminology is slightly confusing, there is a clear disadvantage to receiving a General Discharge in contrast to an Honorable Discharge. While recipients of a General Discharge will receive entitlement to benefits such as VA medical and dental services, VA home loans and burial in national cemeteries, they will not receive educational benefits under either the Montgomery or Post-9/11 GI Bill.

[C-dub]

Sorry you didn't get the exact response for which you were looking. It appears to me you received a less than honorable discharge since it says "under". I think they intend the term under to indicate less than honorable. I don't recall anyone saying you can't or shouldn't discuss it here. I was curious what the DPS said since they are the ones in charge of interpreting the law, managing the program and issuing the licenses. None of us have the authority to set them straight as you seem to wish.

Sorry you got a lower level discharge than honorable discharge. That is between you and the military.

I don't think that is what the intended use of the word "under" is when used like this.

[mojo84]

Sorry you didn't get the exact response for which you were looking. It appears to me you received a less than honorable discharge since it says "under". I think they intend the term under to indicate less than honorable. I don't recall anyone saying you can't or shouldn't discuss it here. I was curious what the DPS said since they are the ones in charge of interpreting the law, managing the program and issuing the licenses. None of us have the authority to set them straight as you seem to wish.

Sorry you got a lower level discharge than honorable discharge. That is between you and the military.

I don't think that is what the intended use of the word "under" is when used like this.

Really? There have been several weeks indicating so. The city that wrote the Sentinel article is an attorney.

[C-dub]

Sorry you didn't get the exact response for which you were looking. It appears to me you received a less than honorable discharge since it says "under". I think they intend the term under to indicate less than honorable. I don't recall anyone saying you can't or shouldn't discuss it here. I was curious what the DPS said since they are the ones in charge of interpreting the law, managing the program and issuing the licenses. None of us have the authority to set them straight as you seem to wish.

Sorry you got a lower level discharge than honorable discharge. That is between you and the military.

I don't think that is what the intended use of the word "under" is when used like this.

Really? There have been several weeks indicating so. The city that wrote the Sentinel article is an attorney.

I thought it was more like the following.

"He did the best he could under the circumstances."

Maybe he did something minor wrong and maybe he didn't, like ScooterSissy. Isn't there a minimum time served required to obtain an honorable discharge.

[mojo84]

I'm only going off what I read. He could appeal and see if he can get them to upgrade his discharge classification.

[C-dub]

I'm only going off what I read. He could speak and see if he can get them to upgrade his discharge classification.

Since he has chosen to not describe why his discharge was that way, I'm inclined to lean in your direction on this, but I didn't read it that way at first.

[rotor]

Let's get this straight, your 79, going for a renewal ( I gather) and no vet discount $35. $25 with vet discount. All this for $10. I served 8 years, have an honorable discharge and didn't use the vet discount when I got my CHL but did use the senior citizen and paid $70. How hard you going to work for $10? I appreciate our vets and they deserve everything coming to them but I just won't work that hard for a few bucks.

[jimlongley]

Sorry you didn't get the exact response for which you were looking. It appears to me you received a less than honorable discharge since it says "under". I think they intend the term under to indicate less than honorable. I don't recall anyone saying you can't or shouldn't discuss it here. I was curious what the DPS said since they are the ones in charge of interpreting the law, managing the program and issuing the licenses. None of us have the authority to set them straight as you seem to wish.

Sorry you got a lower level discharge than honorable discharge. That is between you and the military.

I don't think that is what the intended use of the word "under" is when used like this.

Really? There have been several weeks indicating so. The city that wrote the Sentinel article is an attorney.

I thought it was more like the following.

"He did the best he could under the circumstances."

Maybe he did something minor wrong and maybe he didn't, like ScooterSissy. Isn't there a minimum time served required to obtain an honorable discharge.

I was an Army brat (so I joined the Navy) and can remember my grandfather, Brigadier General E.F. Wallender, telling of the days when a normal discharge was a "General Discharge" and an "Honorable Discharge" was reserved for those who excelled. This changed between the wars, until the expected discharge was "Honorable" and anything less was just that, less. Grandpap didn't survive to see me get my H.D. but he knew I was on my way, even if I was a squid.