OCTC President and Wife Arrested

[EEllis]

I agree about the bad tactics. No question. My comment is that the assumption here is that they did something that deserved arrest. Would it be logical then to assume that no PD has ever made a bad arrest? Ever? That conclusion could be disproven if more video of the incident is released. Or is that simply not possible?

Remember the fellow in the wheelchair who was declared worthy of being shot to death for charging a DPD officer? Seems a lot of people ended up with egg on their faces and one or two ended up in prison when all the facts (and video) came out. Not suggesting that happened here, but then I haven't seen all of the video yet. So I will wait to assume that what they did caused the arrest.

Look it isn't so much about if they deserved arrest but that it isn't unreasonable for the officers to feel that the behavior crossed the line and warranted arrest. This certainly doesn't look like some vendetta or something by the cops, tho I really doubt they are giving much leeway to the OCTC Pres and crew, but just different ideas on what they believe the law means. If the DA feels the charges are appropriate then the case will go forward and a jury will decide. Maybe they will decide that the Watkins are not guilty but that wouldn't make this a bad arrest.

In addition to their guilt, regardless of how their court case falls out, certain behavior can be held wrong regardless of the legality of the actions. If it was just posted that there was an incident without arrest you would find much the same comments regardless of any legal action.

And I think at best you had people say wait and see on the wheelchair guy not that he deserved to be shot so you are way off on the comparison not to mention it seems distasteful to somehow equate Cory Watkins and his situation to an event where someone was killed. Talk about bad tactics

[CoffeeNut]

Why is the open carry movement determined to utilize tactics that aren't doing anyone any good? I mean they end up in jail and we end up wracking our brains at their idiotic decisions that only harm gun rights. What are they getting out of this? Are they being paid by Bloomberg to be this stupid on purpose?

[gljjt]

I agree about the bad tactics. No question. My comment is that the assumption here is that they did something that deserved arrest. Would it be logical then to assume that no PD has ever made a bad arrest? Ever? That conclusion could be disproven if more video of the incident is released. Or is that simply not possible?

Remember the fellow in the wheelchair who was declared worthy of being shot to death for charging a DPD officer? Seems a lot of people ended up with egg on their faces and one or two ended up in prison when all the facts (and video) came out. Not suggesting that happened here, but then I haven't seen all of the video yet. So I will wait to assume that what they did caused the arrest.

So does that mean I have to wait until all evidence is out and the jury reaches a verdict before I can express an opinion? Or wait until after the appeal if convicted? How do we know the jury saw all the evidence? How do we know they reached the correct decision?

We aren't sending anyone to death row here. It is an internet forum where opinions are expressed and discussed. Most if not all opinions are expressed or clarified to say 'based on what I saw' or similar. We form and discuss opinions based on what we have seen and read. Look at Benghazi. We certainly don't know what happened there but most people have an opinion. Mary Landrieu and her taxpayer funded trips. We certainly don't know what happened there but most people have an opinion. Governor Perry being arrested. Hasn't played out in court but most people have an opinion.

You are disappointed at some of us (your words) because we are judging (your words) people without a shred of evidence (your words). We are simply expressing opinions based on what we have seen and read. And by the way, there is at least a shred of evidence. Enough to have a conversation. GLJJT out.

[Charles L. Cotton]

I agree about the bad tactics. No question. My comment is that the assumption here is that they did something that deserved arrest. Would it be logical then to assume that no PD has ever made a bad arrest? Ever? That conclusion could be disproven if more video of the incident is released. Or is that simply not possible?

Since we agree that the tactics are horrible, I won't discuss that issue. (Even OCT claims to have cut all ties to OCTC because their tactics harm the issue.)

My posts make it very clear that I hate bad COPS and bad DA's/ADA's (fellow attorneys). I also hate punks who think they are above the law and can do anything they wish, regardless how it impacts others. There are people on the Forum who hate all COPS and believe they are all unethical and engage in unlawful or unconstitutional acts. That's so far outside of reality that nothing I or anyone else can say will change their minds. (Ironically, most of them are either criminals or want-to-be criminals and/or anarchists.)

The vast majority of LEO's are good, honorable people. Very few would intentionally make a bad arrest or falsify evidence or testimony. There does seem to be a much more "authoritative" approach to law enforcement where street COPs are far less patient, cordial and deferential than in past years. This is not the individual officer's fault; it is the result of a major shift in training that teaches cadets that they "are the pointy end of the spear." I and most other older LEOs and former LEOs think this is a huge mistake and I believe the decline in support and trust of law enforcement personnel in general is the result of this very ill-advised change in training and policies. It is part of what I and many others mean when we refer to the militarization of law enforcement. While it involves military equipment and tactics, it's the change in officers' understanding of their mission that is most damaging. (I would note that Texas DPS has not gone this route and Troopers still represent a kinder, friendlier approach to law enforcement. This is what I call the "Joe Forrester Approach.")

All that said, the vast majority of officers are not going to make a bogus arrest. This is even more true when the person arrested is known to be someone who revels being in the media spotlight. Therefore, I and most people do assume that when anyone is arrested it was a lawful arrest, unless there is unbiased evidence to the contrary. I don't assume they are guilty of the crime, but I do assume that the officer had probable cause to believe a crime had been committed. In the case at issue, viewing the video raises my opinion from the level of an assumption to being convinced the arrest was both lawful and justified from an ethical perspective. I suspect he even wanted to get arrested.

As others have pointed out, and as noted in the TV news report, one can video a traffic stop without being disruptive and others did so on that very night. Shouting at officers or to drivers and passengers during a traffic stop is, in my view, interfering with the lawful act of a peace officer. I'll go one step further. If such an incident resulted in an officer being murdered by someone in a car he had stopped because the officer was distracted by stunts like the one depicted in the video, then I think everyone involved should be charged with and convicted of felony murder.

The Texas Legislature should pass a law that requires all LEO vehicles to have dash cameras and all uniformed officers to wear body cameras. Such practices will protect good COPs while deterring or identifying bad COPs. It's a win-win situation with a relatively small price tag.

Chas.

[gljjt]

I agree about the bad tactics. No question. My comment is that the assumption here is that they did something that deserved arrest. Would it be logical then to assume that no PD has ever made a bad arrest? Ever? That conclusion could be disproven if more video of the incident is released. Or is that simply not possible?

Since we agree that the tactics are horrible, I won't discuss that issue. (Even OCT claims to have cut all ties to OCTC because their tactics harm the issue.)

My posts make it very clear that I hate bad COPS and bad DA's/ADA's (fellow attorneys). I also hate punks who think they are above the law and can do anything they wish, regardless how it impacts others. There are people on the Forum who hate all COPS and believe they are all unethical and engage in unlawful or unconstitutional acts. That's so far outside of reality that nothing I or anyone else can say will change their minds. (Ironically, most of them are either criminals or want-to-be criminals and/or anarchists.)

The vast majority of LEO's are good, honorable people. Very few would intentionally make a bad arrest or falsify evidence or testimony. There does seem to be a much more "authoritative" approach to law enforcement where street COPs are far less patient, cordial and deferential than in past years. This is not the individual officer's fault; it is the result of a major shift in training that teaches cadets that they "are the pointy end of the spear." I and most other older LEOs and former LEOs think this is a huge mistake and I believe the decline in support and trust of law enforcement personnel in general is the result of this very ill-advised change in training and policies. It is part of what I and many others mean when we refer to the militarization of law enforcement. While it involves military equipment and tactics, it's the change in officers' understanding of their mission that is most damaging. (I would note that Texas DPS has not gone this route and Troopers still represent a kinder, friendlier approach to law enforcement. This is what I call the "Joe Forrester Approach.")

All that said, the vast majority of officers are not going to make a bogus arrest. This is even more true when the person arrested is known to be someone who revels being in the media spotlight. Therefore, I and most people do assume that when anyone is arrested it was a lawful arrest, unless there is unbiased evidence to the contrary. I don't assume they are guilty of the crime, but I do assume that the officer had probable cause to believe a crime had been committed. In the case at issue, viewing the video raises my opinion from the level of an assumption to being convinced the arrest was both lawful and justified from an ethical perspective. I suspect he even wanted to get arrested.

As others have pointed out, and as noted in the TV news report, one can video a traffic stop without being disruptive and others did so on that very night. Shouting at officers or to drivers and passengers during a traffic stop is, in my view, interfering with the lawful act of a peace officer. I'll go one step further. If such an incident resulted in an officer being murdered by someone in a car he had stopped because the officer was distracted by stunts like the one depicted in the video, then I think everyone involved should be charged with and convicted of felony murder.

The Texas Legislature should pass a law that requires all LEO vehicles to have dash cameras and all uniformed officers to wear body cameras. Such practices will protect good COPs while deterring or identifying bad COPs. It's a win-win situation with a relatively small price tag.

Chas.

^^^This^^^ on every count.

[LDB415]

Am I just very suspicious or is it possible at least some of these people are part of the Brady Campaign or similar organizations? That probability aside, from what I know so far it sounds like there is at least some validity for the arrest. Hopefully they will get a fair day in court and justice will be served.

[Keith B]

Am I just very suspicious or is it possible at least some of these people are part of the Brady Campaign or similar organizations? That probability aside, from what I know so far it sounds like there is at least some validity for the arrest. Hopefully they will get a fair day in court and justice will be served.

I think their counterproductive tactics make us want to throw them into the same league as the anti-gun people. However, I don't think they are that smart.