Original FW Gun Show question

[olafpfj]

Punishing the majority of people because a few can't follow the law sounds very similar to some other common sense suggestions as of late. You can say it's not a second amendment issue but telling us we are not smart enough to carry properly and the government needs to tell me how is absolutely the problem.

You either don't get my point or you're intentionally not getting my point and I'm hardly advocating that the majority be punished. I am talking about gun shows and only gun shows and a very specific safety hazard. It's a safety hazard that doesn't exist if we were allowed campus carry, 51% carry, constitutional carry, open carry...etc.

I'm not saying people aren't "smart" enough to carry at a gun show. I'm saying that certain places and activities can contribute to otherwise "smart" people making a mistake they wouldn't otherwise be prone to making. It isn't the amount of people being present at a gun show increasing the risk of an accident so your "large football crowd" analogy has nothing to do with it as they aren't in an environment full of people handling guns. It's the specific combination of a large crowd, large swaths of unsecured firearms being handled and some of them being loaded that causes me and obviously gun show operators, their insurance brokers and the police concern. This same concern exists at ranges and shooting competitions for the exact same reason but no one seems to take issue with their "hot" and "cold" policies. And really that is all the 30.06 posting at a gun show is. It is a "hot" and "cold" area policy just like any other shooting sports event. Look at it that way and don't fixate on the rights portion of it.

Would you be OK with open carry at a gun show so long as we all pinky swear that we're all smart enough not to unholster? Ranges and shooting competitions sure aren't!!

Suppose I put 12 guns on a table and pointed out that the Glock17 was loaded and you all better be smart enough to remember that. I can't imagine anyone on this forum saying that would be a safe situation. The danger is not tied to anyone's intelligence and has more to do with certain failings of human nature. It would be too easy to make a mistake. Granted that's not exactly what's happening when you CC at a gun show but in some respects it is.

I'm sorry but the argument that CC doesn't present a risk at a gun show reeks of the guys who think the 4 rules are for stupid people who don't know what they're doing.

You carry at all times because there is a credible risk something might happen. You unload at a gun show or other designated "cold" area because there is a credible risk something might happen.

[jmra]

I've been to my share of gun shows and I've heard more than my share of stories about gun shows. And yes I have been at a gun show more than once when I've heard the dreaded boom.

That being said, I have never heard a single story of a CHL holder pulling a concealed loaded firearm and having an ND at a gun show (doesn't mean it hasn't happened - I just haven't seen it or heard of it). The incidents I have seen/heard of:
- officer clearing gun at entrance pulls trigger on a loaded gun (nothing to suggest gun owner was a CHL holder)
- private dealer NDs while setting up "private sale" items
- customers picking up used guns off of tables and pulling trigger on a gun that was not properly cleared/properly secured by the seller.

None of these were CHL related. If you have any links you would like to share that lend credence to your fear of pending disaster by CHLs at gun shows, please share. Perhaps you will convert someone.

[Macappletex]

I don't like having to take my unloaded gun with me to from the show. Ammo in car and a empty gun doesn't help me. I know the bad guys would be stupid to rob a guy leaving a gun show but it would be easier if they knew your gun is empty. I can carry my loaded gun that is concealed almost anywhere in Texas but not at a place where there are thousands of guns and ammo lying around!

[olafpfj]

None of these were CHL related. If you have any links you would like to share that lend credence to your fear of pending disaster by CHLs at gun shows, please share. Perhaps you will convert someone.

Fair enough point.

However...Since most gun shows in Texas are posted, it would be illegal for a CHL holder to carry there and since we are such a law abiding lot there should be exactly 0 CHL incidents. I know...this rebuttal is pretty weak sauce but it's the best snarky response I could think of

As long as shows continue to be posted we will never know if the rarity of ND's at gunshows is due to people being on the ball or because the 30.06 is keeping the risk down. We certainly know that gun laws in general do nothing to prevent crime as the most restrictive areas tend to be the most violent. For all we know CC at a show isn't a problem and may be going on quite a lot since concealed means concealed. I was really just trying to point out that I don't understand why some feel a gunshows "hot/cold" policy is somehow not relevant to safety when it is accepted as fundamental at other very similar events with similar safety concerns. I guess some people don't see the similarities that I see.

Anyway, I agree with the policy at shows but please don't anyone misconstrue that I would advocate the government telling us what to do. I think the show organizers hide behind the 30.06 to keep their hands clean while they would have the same policy regardless of the law.

As always...I will defend your right to disagree. I am far more libertarian than I seem to be coming across in this thread.

[JP171]

None of these were CHL related. If you have any links you would like to share that lend credence to your fear of pending disaster by CHLs at gun shows, please share. Perhaps you will convert someone.

Fair enough point.

However...Since most gun shows in Texas are posted, it would be illegal for a CHL holder to carry there and since we are such a law abiding lot there should be exactly 0 CHL incidents. I know...this rebuttal is pretty weak sauce but it's the best snarky response I could think of

As long as shows continue to be posted we will never know if the rarity of ND's at gunshows is due to people being on the ball or because the 30.06 is keeping the risk down. We certainly know that gun laws in general do nothing to prevent crime as the most restrictive areas tend to be the most violent. For all we know CC at a show isn't a problem and may be going on quite a lot since concealed means concealed. I was really just trying to point out that I don't understand why some feel a gunshows "hot/cold" policy is somehow not relevant to safety when it is accepted as fundamental at other very similar events with similar safety concerns. I guess some people don't see the similarities that I see.

Anyway, I agree with the policy at shows but please don't anyone misconstrue that I would advocate the government telling us what to do. I think the show organizers hide behind the 30.06 to keep their hands clean while they would have the same policy regardless of the law.

As always...I will defend your right to disagree. I am far more libertarian than I seem to be coming across in this thread.

the bold part is actually open to question as most facilities are owned by governmental agencies and such posting has no legal force, but there is no case law on it as we are all chicken to be test cases

[jmra]

None of these were CHL related. If you have any links you would like to share that lend credence to your fear of pending disaster by CHLs at gun shows, please share. Perhaps you will convert someone.

Fair enough point.

However...Since most gun shows in Texas are posted, (Actually I have been to a number of shows that were not posted, was at one just yesterday that was not posted) it would be illegal for a CHL holder to carry there (as another poster stated, 30.06 signs at shows on city owned property per law are not enforceable) and since we are such a law abiding lot (Statistically much more law abiding than LEO, have any issues with LEO carrying at gun show?)there should be exactly 0 CHL incidents. I know...this rebuttal is pretty weak sauce ( ) but it's the best snarky response I could think of

As long as shows continue to be posted we will never know if the rarity of ND's at gunshows is due to people being on the ball or because the 30.06 is keeping the risk down. We certainly know that gun laws in general do nothing to prevent crime as the most restrictive areas tend to be the most violent. For all we know CC at a show isn't a problem and may be going on quite a lot since concealed means concealed. (Something we agree on) I was really just trying to point out that I don't understand why some feel a gunshows "hot/cold" policy is somehow not relevant to safety when it is accepted as fundamental at other very similar events with similar safety concerns. (All of the "other events" you mentioned involve an activity where people are not merely carrying weapons, they are shooting them. This is very much an apples and oranges comparison.) I guess some people don't see the similarities that I see. (As I just stated, there's very good reason for that).

Anyway, I agree with the policy at shows but please don't anyone misconstrue that I would advocate the government telling us what to do. I think the show organizers hide behind the 30.06 to keep their hands clean while they would have the same policy regardless of the law. (Based on what? Your own fears?)

As always...I will defend your right to disagree. I am far more libertarian than I seem to be coming across in this thread.

Responses in red.

[olafpfj]

None of these were CHL related. If you have any links you would like to share that lend credence to your fear of pending disaster by CHLs at gun shows, please share. Perhaps you will convert someone.

Fair enough point.

However...Since most gun shows in Texas are posted, (Actually I have been to a number of shows that were not posted, was at one just yesterday that was not posted) it would be illegal for a CHL holder to carry there (as another poster stated, 30.06 signs at shows on city owned property per law are not enforceable) and since we are such a law abiding lot (Statistically much more law abiding than LEO, have any issues with LEO carrying at gun show?)there should be exactly 0 CHL incidents. I know...this rebuttal is pretty weak sauce ( ) but it's the best snarky response I could think of

As long as shows continue to be posted we will never know if the rarity of ND's at gunshows is due to people being on the ball or because the 30.06 is keeping the risk down. We certainly know that gun laws in general do nothing to prevent crime as the most restrictive areas tend to be the most violent. For all we know CC at a show isn't a problem and may be going on quite a lot since concealed means concealed. (Something we agree on) I was really just trying to point out that I don't understand why some feel a gunshows "hot/cold" policy is somehow not relevant to safety when it is accepted as fundamental at other very similar events with similar safety concerns. (All of the "other events" you mentioned involve an activity where people are not merely carrying weapons, they are shooting them. This is very much an apples and oranges comparison.) I guess some people don't see the similarities that I see. (As I just stated, there's very good reason for that).

Anyway, I agree with the policy at shows but please don't anyone misconstrue that I would advocate the government telling us what to do. I think the show organizers hide behind the 30.06 to keep their hands clean while they would have the same policy regardless of the law. (Based on what? Your own fears?)

As always...I will defend your right to disagree. I am far more libertarian than I seem to be coming across in this thread.

Responses in red.

While I won't completely concede the argument I will admit that, in light of your responses, perhaps my stance is a little too strong.

Forgive me...I'm from Kalifornia...and no...I'm not trying to bring that states politics with me...never shared those view to begin with.

[KRM45]

As a leo, and chl holder, I have carried in every gun show I have been to for the past 7 years. I've never felt the need to remove my loaded weapon from my holster to show or do anything. I have also never "inadvertently" shot anyone or anything.

Sure, my training exceeds the minimum required for a chl, but many people choose to exceed this minimum amount too. What really makes it safer for me to do it, but not others?

[jmra]

As a leo, and chl holder, I have carried in every gun show I have been to for the past 7 years. I've never felt the need to remove my loaded weapon from my holster to show or do anything. I have also never "inadvertently" shot anyone or anything.

Sure, my training exceeds the minimum required for a chl, but many people choose to exceed this minimum amount too. What really makes it safer for me to do it, but not others?

I don't believe that people who have a proven track record of doing the right thing somehow drop 30 IQ points because they are at a gun show.

[Greybeard]

"Sorry if I've offended anyone it's just a real pet peeve of mine..."

I'm with ya , bro. Having worked numerous guns shows in various ways for the past 18 years, I can attest to more facts than I care to post on a public forum that there are just enough licensed idiots out there that I can live with finding a safe place to reload promptly upon leaving. In fact, did it about 2:00 p.m. yesterday. Just south of the main door at Will Rogers there is a gated entrance to the dumpster area and a nice little "L" just inside the 8 foot tall brick "privacy wall' that faces west.

[Macappletex]

Exactly what I did as well!

[Jumping Frog]

I still don't understand the problem people have with not being allowed to carry a LOADED gun at a gun show. ...

The biggest most important rule that was beat into my head when I got my NRA basic pistol cert. was that there is NO LIVE AMMO ANYWHERE IN THE ROOM...PERIOD!!!

...
The 30.06 signs (leave the city owned building aspect out of it) force people to toe the line on a basic fundamental safety standard. When handling or displaying firearms anywhere other than a range, they should be unloaded and all ammo locked up.

One point you are missing is that 30.06 signage has absolutely NOTHING to do with loaded versus unloaded.

The idiotic thing about 30.06 signs at a gun show is any licensee walking around with an UNLOADED handgun on their person is already violating the signage. (Whether the signage is enforceable or not is a separate issue).

Now, getting past the signage issue, my take is every firearm that will be handled at a gun show should be unloaded. However, a concealed self-defense handgun should never be handled in a gun show or anywhere else in ordinary public life unless it is used for self defense. Thus these guns should always be loaded when carried.

In general, it does not seem hard to distinguish between unloaded guns being brought to a gun show for swapping/selling versus loaded handguns being carried concealed for self defense.

[Dirthawking]

The last show I went to they zip tied my weapon and handed it back to me. I asked the three officers at the table if I could put my weapon back in my IWB holster. They all three said yes. I pointed to the 30.06 sign and said what about that? They looked at each other and shrugged. I laughed and shook my head as I walked away.

[Scott Farkus]

the bold part is actually open to question as most facilities are owned by governmental agencies and such posting has no legal force, but there is no case law on it as we are all chicken to be test cases

This is my problem with this whole issue of 30.06 at gun shows which are held in government owned facilities (which is most of them). A 30.06 sign by statute has no legal force, yet there are armed police officers checking weapons at the door. Yes, concealed is concealed but if for whatever reason you're found to be carrying, most likely you're going to jail, and good luck fighting it in court. Like most of us, I certainly don't have the time and money to be the test case.

If we think it's a good idea not to allow concealed carry at gun shows, then pass a law that makes this an exception for government owned buildings. If we want to split hairs over whether a CCW means its loaded or unloaded, have the promoter enforce a rule to that effect and let them fight it in court if challenged. But to just say "well, even though government buildings can't be validly posted 30.06, it's a good idea not to have loaded weapons at gun shows" is exactly the attitude that gun owners have been fighting from the anti-gun side for decades. Don't make up laws that aren't there, or bend laws that are to suit your fancy in a particular circumstance. Change it, or don't complain the next time an anti-gunner comes up with a "good idea" to circumvent an existing law.

[DoctorWu]

Totally off topic but how were the crowds? I haven't been to a show since the incident last December because of all the news reports of lines around the building. Did you have to stand in a long line?