Chamber or No Chamber

[stevem]

Part of the reason this is even a question with modern pistols is you have many trainers who are invested in teaching the "empty chamber carry" because their entire system is built off this.

[poppo]

Do you think a thug will give you a chance to pull back a slide or take a safety off

I can see the point about racking the slide, but I see no issue with a safety. It's will be off before the gun is out of the holster. Now I am talking about guns that are SAO - cocked and locked (i.e. 1911 style).

That said, I always keep one chambered.

[gigag04]

SA/DA are to be carried chambered, hammer down, safety off.

DAO striker fired are to be carried chambered and no safety.

SAO are to be carried cocked and locked (and loaded)

[wow808]

Interesting, I appreciate the responses.. thank you.. I agree, Chambered is the most logical choice. so my dilemma carries on.. how to come to grips with an always live chambered weapon..

I read one guy de-cocks his hammer on his Sa/Da. not all pistols have this ability. I am looking to get a HK USP, theres just something I dig about that gun. I read that it has the ability to decock as well. What's the theory behind decocking? I mean one is already in chamber.. in the HK's case, the hammer just isn't fully cocked back but in a "half" cocked position.. I'm just trying to understand the rationality behind it..

Striker types with fancy safeties like a Glock or XD, the answer is simple.. rack it and let it be, not much you can do there... its the hammer types where I can see differing opinions..

Sorry if I seem lost, I'm just trying to learn the best ways to carry.

Thanks

[srothstein]

May I suggest that the best way to carry is for you to decide which way works best for you? Personally, I carry with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked with the thumb safety on (a 1911, if you could not tell). I have carried that way since the Army stopped making me carry with an empty chamber 35 years ago. Since then, I have also carried striker fired pistols with a round in the chamber and a revolver with with a full cylinder load.

If you are uncomfortable carrying that way, find the way that makes you feel better, even if that is with no round chambered.Your personal attitude will be the determining factor in how you carry, as it should be. But, to help you decide, look at how your local police carry their weapons. Then look at how many unintended shots they have fired. Check which weapons they carry and how the rounds were fired, also.

I have a personal bias towards 1911s though I do think Glocks are good guns. I would be almost willing to bet that if you check what weapons have the most unintended discharges, it would be Glocks. That could be because they are so common in police work, but it could also be because they do not have the external safety that 1911s and other pistols do. I have not done a proper study on this, so it is just a seat of the pants estimate, fueled by bias, so I could be wrong. It is just something to consider, IMO.

[jimlongley]

May I suggest that the best way to carry is for you to decide which way works best for you? Personally, I carry with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked with the thumb safety on (a 1911, if you could not tell). I have carried that way since the Army stopped making me carry with an empty chamber 35 years ago. Since then, I have also carried striker fired pistols with a round in the chamber and a revolver with with a full cylinder load.

If you are uncomfortable carrying that way, find the way that makes you feel better, even if that is with no round chambered.Your personal attitude will be the determining factor in how you carry, as it should be. But, to help you decide, look at how your local police carry their weapons. Then look at how many unintended shots they have fired. Check which weapons they carry and how the rounds were fired, also.

I have a personal bias towards 1911s though I do think Glocks are good guns. I would be almost willing to bet that if you check what weapons have the most unintended discharges, it would be Glocks. That could be because they are so common in police work, but it could also be because they do not have the external safety that 1911s and other pistols do. I have not done a proper study on this, so it is just a seat of the pants estimate, fueled by bias, so I could be wrong. It is just something to consider, IMO.

My 1911s are carried with one in the chamber, and cocked and locked, my BUG is DA only, with one in the chamber - ALL my guns get carried with one in the chamber.

[RogueUSMC]

Someone mentioned the trusty .38...This may be a good place to start for you. Keep the hammer closed on an empty chamber...nothing but an intentional double action trigger pull will chamber and fire a round. The only safety is between your ears. (which is the primary safety on any weapon by the way). Good luck.

[jsk]

I have a personal bias towards 1911s though I do think Glocks are good guns. I would be almost willing to bet that if you check what weapons have the most unintended discharges, it would be Glocks. That could be because they are so common in police work, but it could also be because they do not have the external safety that 1911s and other pistols do. I have not done a proper study on this, so it is just a seat of the pants estimate, fueled by bias, so I could be wrong. It is just something to consider, IMO.

There's a reason the term "glock leg" exists; I've never heard it called "1911 leg". :)

[jmra]

There's a reason the term "glock leg" exists; I've never heard it called "1911 leg". :)

You are absolutely correct that the term exist for a reason. The term "Glock leg" was created as a fear campaign by Glock's competitors when Glock took the police industry by storm.
There is no proof whatsoever that on average Glock owners experience more NDs than owners of any other brand. I have seen just as many examples of injuries with 1911s as I have Glocks despite the fact that Glocks see many more times the service hours on daily basis.

[MoJo]

In over 10 years of being an IDPA safety officer there have been only two NDs on my range and both of them were 1911 pistols. A lot of other things bad have happened to Glock, XD, and M&P shooters but, so far no ND. I wonder why that is? Answer: They keep their finger OFF the trigger. I think a lot of people falsely think a safety is just that, safe. It isn't .

[SQLGeek]

I have a personal bias towards 1911s though I do think Glocks are good guns. I would be almost willing to bet that if you check what weapons have the most unintended discharges, it would be Glocks. That could be because they are so common in police work, but it could also be because they do not have the external safety that 1911s and other pistols do. I have not done a proper study on this, so it is just a seat of the pants estimate, fueled by bias, so I could be wrong. It is just something to consider, IMO.

There's a reason the term "glock leg" exists; I've never heard it called "1911 leg". :)

But it still happens...

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You would carry a DA/SA pistol decocked because the trigger is very light when it is cocked. On my M59, it is about the same as a 1911's trigger which is lighter than my Glock's trigger. It also has no trigger safety like the Glock. Theoretically speaking, you probably could carry the DA/SA pistol cocked but I personally wouldn't.

[Beiruty]

We need a FAQ section to answer those noobie questions.

[The Annoyed Man]

Thanks. I'm all for one in the chamber, but more curious on what folks do with hammer type semis and strikers...

HK USP and the like have big ol hammers. One guy I know loads one in chamber and slowly drops the hammer on it.. to keep it "safe". I said that's probably not a good idea.. argument ensues lol. So I bring up strikers.. you can't make it "safe" by your definition.. so he swears off striker types. LOL. XDs have grip and finger safety,. They don't just "go off".. but he states you are not in control of the firing action with those. It seems I can't win lol.

What says the community on this?

I carried an HK USP Compact for a while. Good gun, I just didn't like .40 Caliber, so I sold it. I carried it both cocked and locked, and hammer down on a loaded chamber. USP pistols are not a good example of the predicament you describe because they are sold with several different trigger configurations, including DAO. Mine had a safety/decocker. You could use the safety lever to lock the raised hammer. Unlike 1911s, you could cycle the slide with the hammer locked in the raised position. Downward pressure on the lever decocked the hammer, safely lowering it without fear of discharge. There was no need to "slowly drop the hammer." The mechanism did it for you, more safely than you could do it yourself.

Even so, I usually carried that gun cocked and locked. The reason was that my other primary carry gun at the time was a 3" Kimber 1911, which I also carried cocked and locked. Similar mechanics on the draw simplified things.

As far as safety goes, consider the mechanical complexity which has to occur for even a plain-Jane 1911 to fire. The thumb safety has to be released. The grip safety has to be properly depressed (if it is not fully depressed, the gun won't discharge). The trigger has to be pulled. And in many contemporary 1911 designs, there is also a firing pin safety which, if not pulled out of the way by the trigger, will not allow the firing pin to move forward toward the primer. The 1911 is actually a VERY safe design to carry cocked and locked. And if that doesn't convince you, consider that a double action revolver ALWAYS has a round in the chamber. Also consider that virtually every gun carried concealed is carried in a holster that covers the trigger.

But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if it is a revolver, a Glock, a USP, or a 1911. . . . . .safe gun handling is what avoids negligent discharges. There are NO "accidental" discharges. Guns don't go off by themselves. It always requires a human, interacting with the gun's interface, either intentionally or negligently, to make a gun fire. So what this boils down to is, do YOU trust YOUR gun handling skills? IF you don't, then you should practice until you DO. Then carry the gun in the only way that makes sense for someone who is carrying a gun for self-protection — and that is with a round in the chamber.

[sawdust]

Probably everyone on this forum has gone through a similar progression in deciding on what to carry and how to carry. My several-year progression was military - 1911 (the model, not the year), occasional firing range practice with S&W .357 revolver, CHL, re-introduction to semi-automatics, carry, 1-in-the-chamber. Although I chose to not go back to 1911 (the year or the model), I discovered that I wanted to see the hammer - hence no Glocks. The model that I eventually settled on is a DA/SA with a decocker that also acts as a safety. When the safety is "on", the trigger is disengaged. It is a very natural action to place the safety in the "off" position if the need to draw from the holster occurs. Some of these attributes I discovered after its purchase. The initial decision to purchase it was that it had a visible hammer, it was an acceptable caliber, it had a decently high capacity, it fit my hand very well, and I could hit my (paper) target wih it.

For me, the key aspect of the decision to carry chambered or not has more to do with your own degree of confidence in yourself coupled with the features of the firearm. (Does anyone advocate carrying a revolver cocked and with a round under the firing pin?) Regadless of the model chosen, it is vital to practice with it in order to create consistent patterns and to generate muscle-memory. I am an advocate of "one model, all the time", as opposed to the "model-of-the day" approach to carrying.

Establishing muscle memory is important. To use driving a car as an example, I own 2 vehicles. One, which I drive the majority of the time, has its windshield wiper controls on a stem on the left side of the steering column. The other car has its controls on the right side of the column. Recently, while driving the 2nd car, I needed to quickly clear the windshield. In accomplishing that task, in short order I managed to give left- and right-turn signals, turn the headlights off and on, put my lights on bright, and spray the windshield with washer fluid before I finally got the wipers going.

But maybe that's just me.

[The Annoyed Man]

I am an advocate of "one model, all the time", as opposed to the "model-of-the day" approach to carrying.

See, I'm a little looser than that. Ever since I sold my 3" Kimber (to finance the purchase of something else), all of my carry guns have been either striker fired, or a revolver. One of those striker fired pistols also had a thumb safety—a M&P45 Full Size—which I bought in that configuration when I still carried the Kimber. I rarely ever carry that M&P anymore because the manual of arms is different from the other striker-fired guns. In fact, when I do carry it, I tend to leave the safety in the off position, because the M&P doesn't really need an external safety mechanism, and most of them don't have that added thumb safety. The other carry guns are all different, but they are similarly managed in that they are point and click interfaces.

(Does anyone advocate carrying a revolver cocked and with a round under the firing pin?)

Not without a safety that locks up the hammer until the safety is released. But even a Lemon Squeezer S&W is still a double action pistol; and a lot of modern double action pistols have a transfer bar under the hammer that will not allow the hammer to contact the firing pin without the trigger being pulled.