51% patio carry?

[Keith B]

The legal question that will need to be settled by the court is if the key word in the Penal Code is "premises" or if it is the phrase "licensed premises". If premises is the definition, you can carry on the patio. If the phrase "licensed premises" takes premises, you cannot carry in the parking lot or on the patio or anywhere else covered by the license.

Does that mean someone without a CHL would be committing a felony if they have a gun in their car at a convenience store that includes the parking lot in the TABC premises?

No. Convenience stores are not licensed for on-premise consumption, so the parking lot would not be part of the licensed premise. An unlicensed person carrying a pistol into a convenience store would be illegal and the penalty is higher for carrying into a place that is licensed to sell alcohol for off-premise consumption.

In the case of a 51% location licensed for on-premise consumption, I would also think that the parking lot would not be part of the licensed premise, although it could be if it were set up to do a lot of parking lot concerts, parties, etc. Just a regular bar parking lot would normally not be part of the licensed premise though.

[Hoosier Daddy]

The legal question that will need to be settled by the court is if the key word in the Penal Code is "premises" or if it is the phrase "licensed premises". If premises is the definition, you can carry on the patio. If the phrase "licensed premises" takes premises, you cannot carry in the parking lot or on the patio or anywhere else covered by the license.

Does that mean someone without a CHL would be committing a felony if they have a gun in their car at a convenience store that includes the parking lot in the TABC premises?

No. Convenience stores are not licensed for on-premise consumption, so the parking lot would not be part of the licensed premise.

I thought drinking in the convenience store parking lot was illegal because it was part of the TABC licensed premises and their license does not allow on-premises consumption.

[Keith B]

The legal question that will need to be settled by the court is if the key word in the Penal Code is "premises" or if it is the phrase "licensed premises". If premises is the definition, you can carry on the patio. If the phrase "licensed premises" takes premises, you cannot carry in the parking lot or on the patio or anywhere else covered by the license.

Does that mean someone without a CHL would be committing a felony if they have a gun in their car at a convenience store that includes the parking lot in the TABC premises?

No. Convenience stores are not licensed for on-premise consumption, so the parking lot would not be part of the licensed premise.

I thought drinking in the convenience store parking lot was illegal because it was part of the TABC licensed premises and their license does not allow on-premises consumption.

Not sure about that. Maybe srothstein will pipe in here and shed some light on it.

[karder]

In what seems to have been another lifetime, I was the owner of a 51% establishment. Forgive me if my information is outdated, but I had a small patio at my establishment and the TABC was very explicit that to be in compliance the patio had to be fenced off if alcohol was being served outside. I went through a fair amount of expense to fence the area, provided lighted exit sign and the proper "don't take drinks off the patio" signage. Ordinances will vary from one locality to the next, but the TABC officer who consulted with me, was pretty clear about what I needed to be fully in compliance.

He also was clear that patio rules are not always enforced strictly and that there were a lot of restaurants and bars that would put tables on the sidewalks and patios without the proper permits, signage, fencing etc. He said that generally TABC officers would not make a big deal about it as long as there were no complaints, or fights, or other issues. I always found the TABC officers to be extremely helpful and easy to work with. At least the one who worked with me seemed more interested in educating and helping me stay in compliance than in busting my back for every little problem.

As others have said, it is a gray area. My guess is that if the patio is unfenced and open, where people can walk off and on without any barrier, it is not part of the 51% area. This is just an opinion and could very well be wrong, so proceed with caution. Personally, I would not want to be a test case so I would do as you have suggested, keep the gun in my jacket and lock jacket in saddlebag.

[srothstein]

The legal question that will need to be settled by the court is if the key word in the Penal Code is "premises" or if it is the phrase "licensed premises". If premises is the definition, you can carry on the patio. If the phrase "licensed premises" takes premises, you cannot carry in the parking lot or on the patio or anywhere else covered by the license.

Does that mean someone without a CHL would be committing a felony if they have a gun in their car at a convenience store that includes the parking lot in the TABC premises?

No. Convenience stores are not licensed for on-premise consumption, so the parking lot would not be part of the licensed premise. An unlicensed person carrying a pistol into a convenience store would be illegal and the penalty is higher for carrying into a place that is licensed to sell alcohol for off-premise consumption.

In the case of a 51% location licensed for on-premise consumption, I would also think that the parking lot would not be part of the licensed premise, although it could be if it were set up to do a lot of parking lot concerts, parties, etc. Just a regular bar parking lot would normally not be part of the licensed premise though.

Actually, the parking lot is part of the licensed premises and this is where quite a bit of the case law on weapons on licensed premises comes from. But, the non-chl would not be committing a crime because the law allows guns in cars. For non-51% locations, the law on licensed premises is still part of 46.02 and we know that allows car carry now. The non-chl is not affected by 46.035 since he cannot carry outside of the car anyway.

[Keith B]

The legal question that will need to be settled by the court is if the key word in the Penal Code is "premises" or if it is the phrase "licensed premises". If premises is the definition, you can carry on the patio. If the phrase "licensed premises" takes premises, you cannot carry in the parking lot or on the patio or anywhere else covered by the license.

Does that mean someone without a CHL would be committing a felony if they have a gun in their car at a convenience store that includes the parking lot in the TABC premises?

No. Convenience stores are not licensed for on-premise consumption, so the parking lot would not be part of the licensed premise. An unlicensed person carrying a pistol into a convenience store would be illegal and the penalty is higher for carrying into a place that is licensed to sell alcohol for off-premise consumption.

In the case of a 51% location licensed for on-premise consumption, I would also think that the parking lot would not be part of the licensed premise, although it could be if it were set up to do a lot of parking lot concerts, parties, etc. Just a regular bar parking lot would normally not be part of the licensed premise though.

Actually, the parking lot is part of the licensed premises and this is where quite a bit of the case law on weapons on licensed premises comes from. But, the non-chl would not be committing a crime because the law allows guns in cars. For non-51% locations, the law on licensed premises is still part of 46.02 and we know that allows car carry now. The non-chl is not affected by 46.035 since he cannot carry outside of the car anyway.

Thanks for the clarification Steve!

[drjoker]

deleted because srothstein had a better explanation.

[tarkus]

deleted because srothstein had a better explanation.

[oohrah]

If they were a food/bar place, you should pull their TABC license and see if they truly are a 51% place. Some restaurants post 51% signs in the bar area, even tho they are not.

[android]

If they were a food/bar place, you should pull their TABC license and see if they truly are a 51% place. Some restaurants post 51% signs in the bar area, even tho they are not.

Yes, I was going to suggest this too. There is no allowance for them to post the wrong sign. Just call TABC and complain. You don't have to mention CHL or guns or anything, just tell them the sign posted does not match the sign indicated on the license. TABC will get them to correct the situation.

[CainA]

Actually, the parking lot is part of the licensed premises and this is where quite a bit of the case law on weapons on licensed premises comes from. But, the non-chl would not be committing a crime because the law allows guns in cars. For non-51% locations, the law on licensed premises is still part of 46.02 and we know that allows car carry now. The non-chl is not affected by 46.035 since he cannot carry outside of the car anyway.

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if this has come up.

What if the licensed premises share's or has a common parking lot with some other (non licensed) business(es), does that whole parking lot become off limits then?

[EEllis]

Actually, the parking lot is part of the licensed premises and this is where quite a bit of the case law on weapons on licensed premises comes from. But, the non-chl would not be committing a crime because the law allows guns in cars. For non-51% locations, the law on licensed premises is still part of 46.02 and we know that allows car carry now. The non-chl is not affected by 46.035 since he cannot carry outside of the car anyway.

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if this has come up.

What if the licensed premises share's or has a common parking lot with some other (non licensed) business(es), does that whole parking lot become off limits then?

There is no off limits to any parking lot for a 51% business when your gun stays in the car. Really you only need to worry if drinks are served where you are, like when they block or flag an area for an outdoor party, If not then no one will care.

[srothstein]

Actually, the parking lot is part of the licensed premises and this is where quite a bit of the case law on weapons on licensed premises comes from. But, the non-chl would not be committing a crime because the law allows guns in cars. For non-51% locations, the law on licensed premises is still part of 46.02 and we know that allows car carry now. The non-chl is not affected by 46.035 since he cannot carry outside of the car anyway.

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive me if this has come up.

What if the licensed premises share's or has a common parking lot with some other (non licensed) business(es), does that whole parking lot become off limits then?

This is a really gray area of the law. As far as I know, it depends on whether the businesses have separate addresses or all one address. If there are separate addresses, like a strip mall, the part of the parking lot that would be in front of the bar (or alongside it if it is the corner store) would be part of the licensed premise. Of course, the parking lot could be marked off the license if they applied with it drawn that way. This is common for businesses that have one address, like a mall.

And while it was pointed out that the gun was legal in the car, even if it was a 51% location, there is one possible time that this could bite you. If there is a bar in a strip center, the parking lot might be included in the license. If you happened to park in front of the bar and then get out of the car to go to the dry cleaner next door while still carrying your pistol, you would be technically in violation of the law. It is one of the cases where it is highly unlikely to ever come up, but it should be noted, just in case.

[gringo pistolero]

What's the penalty for violating the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Code?

[srothstein]

It depends on the violation, like any other code. There are some misdemeanors and some felonies in there.