Carrying at my son's soccer practice

[TexasCajun]

§46.035 (3) “Premises” means a building or a portion of a building. The term does not include any public or private driveway, street, sidewalk or walkway, parking lot, parking garage, or other parking area.

[gdanaher]

So you are saying that a stadium such as the Cotton Bowl, an open air stadium, would not be 'premises' if it was owned by a school district? By any definition I do believe it would be construed to be a building of some sort.

[texanjoker]

Two of the club fields my kids play at have signs saying no guns, but no 30-06 signs.

[Sport Coach]

Good discussion. Years ago I had read "no kids' sports" and apparently incorrectly assumed all kids' sports were off limits carry, school sponsored or otherwise. Please point me to the law which describes designation of school sponsored sports and not just any sporting practice or event where kids are playing.

[Keith B]

Good discussion. Years ago I had read "no kids' sports" and apparently incorrectly assumed all kids' sports were off limits carry, school sponsored or otherwise. Please point me to the law which describes designation of school sponsored sports and not just any sporting practice or event where kids are playing.

Penal Code 46.035

§ 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE
HOLDER. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.
(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun
under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code,
regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the
license holder's person:
(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or
license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic
Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its
income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for
on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic
Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;
(2) on the premises where a high school, collegiate,
or professional sporting event or interscholastic event is taking
place, unless the license holder is a participant in the event and a
handgun is used in the event;...

[Kodiak101]

It's a very interesting conversation. I went this evening to my other sons lacrosse game. The field is on school property. There is a fence around the field, but anyone can enter the stands. There is no gate or fence around the stands.

There is a bathroom under the stands.

With this facility can I carry in the stands but not use the bathroom?

[bagman45]

WHAT KEITH SAID! Unless it fits the description in RED, you're good to carry.

[Keith B]

It's a very interesting conversation. I went this evening to my other sons lacrosse game. The field is on school property. There is a fence around the field, but anyone can enter the stands. There is no gate or fence around the stands.

There is a bathroom under the stands.

With this facility can I carry in the stands but not use the bathroom?

If it is an enclosed structure on owned by the school, then no you cannot carry there. Also, you said your son's sport was a league, but why are they allowed to use the school athletic fields? There may be a gray area if the school is sponsoring the league in a manner that they are allowing them to use the field at no cost. I am not a lawyer, but if I were a DA and wanted to push the issue I could argue that the school was sponsoring the event by giving them the fields to play on at no charge.

[RottenApple]

It's a very interesting conversation. I went this evening to my other sons lacrosse game. The field is on school property. There is a fence around the field, but anyone can enter the stands. There is no gate or fence around the stands.

There is a bathroom under the stands.

With this facility can I carry in the stands but not use the bathroom?

If it is an enclosed structure on owned by the school, then no you cannot carry there. Also, you said your son's sport was a league, but why are they allowed to use the school athletic fields? There may be a gray area if the school is sponsoring the league in a manner that they are allowing them to use the field at no cost. I am not a lawyer, but if I were a DA and wanted to push the issue I could argue that the school was sponsoring the event by giving them the fields to play on at no charge.

Wow. We do work in some grey areas with this one. For what it's worth (IANAL), I disagree with you "enclosed structure" statement.... Kinda. A fence w/o a gate would not, IMHO, be considered an "enclosed structure". Now, if it had a gate and/or a building/structure that you had to go through to get to the open air field (think: Roman Colosseum), then that would definitely qualify.

But you do make an excellent point regarding the free use of school grounds possibly counting as some sort of school sponsorship. I'd be interested in hearing from any of the lawyers on the board about that one.

[Keith B]

It's a very interesting conversation. I went this evening to my other sons lacrosse game. The field is on school property. There is a fence around the field, but anyone can enter the stands. There is no gate or fence around the stands.

There is a bathroom under the stands.

With this facility can I carry in the stands but not use the bathroom?

If it is an enclosed structure on owned by the school, then no you cannot carry there. Also, you said your son's sport was a league, but why are they allowed to use the school athletic fields? There may be a gray area if the school is sponsoring the league in a manner that they are allowing them to use the field at no cost. I am not a lawyer, but if I were a DA and wanted to push the issue I could argue that the school was sponsoring the event by giving them the fields to play on at no charge.

Wow. We do work in some grey areas with this one. For what it's worth (IANAL), I disagree with you "enclosed structure" statement.... Kinda. A fence w/o a gate would not, IMHO, be considered an "enclosed structure". Now, if it had a gate and/or a building/structure that you had to go through to get to the open air field (think: Roman Colosseum), then that would definitely qualify.

But you do make an excellent point regarding the free use of school grounds possibly counting as some sort of school sponsorship. I'd be interested in hearing from any of the lawyers on the board about that one.

Enclosed means all sides. A fence all the way around would constitute being an 'enclosed' field; look at the definition I posted above. However, if there was no gate to go through or open access with a side that was not fenced and could not be closed off and access restricted by closing a gate, etc, then I would say it was not enclosed.

Just remember, a good lawyer will be capable of working words to make them meet their needs during a court battle. So, if you got one that had an agenda to go after you for carrying in a prohibited place, they could make a good argument for their cause that might sway the Judge and/or jury to side with them.

[RottenApple]

Enclosed means all sides. A fence all the way around would constitute being an 'enclosed' field; look at the definition I posted above. However, if there was no gate to go through or open access with a side that was not fenced and could not be closed off and access restricted by closing a gate, etc, then I would say it was not enclosed.

Just remember, a good lawyer will be capable of working words to make them meet their needs during a court battle. So, if you got one that had an agenda to go after you for carrying in a prohibited place, they could make a good argument for their cause that might sway the Judge and/or jury to side with them.

Good points.

Especially about the lawyer.

[Keith B]

Enclosed means all sides. A fence all the way around would constitute being an 'enclosed' field; look at the definition I posted above. However, if there was no gate to go through or open access with a side that was not fenced and could not be closed off and access restricted by closing a gate, etc, then I would say it was not enclosed.

Just remember, a good lawyer will be capable of working words to make them meet their needs during a court battle. So, if you got one that had an agenda to go after you for carrying in a prohibited place, they could make a good argument for their cause that might sway the Judge and/or jury to side with them.

Good points.

Especially about the lawyer.

One thing to add: Carrying in gray areas (30.06 sign not valid size or wording, school 'property' during certain events, etc) is a personal choice that each CHL holder must make for themselves. Every situation is different and the CHL'er must size up the situation and make their own go/no-go decision. If I have a gray area that I have to make a decision on I will look at it and say to myself 'Self, if you are caught carrying in this location can you make a really solid argument about why you chose to carry in the location and why it was NOT a valid prohibited location?'. If I can pose the question to myself in this manner and convince myself that it really isn't off-limits and that I am willing to argue that point even as far as court, then I will carry. If I can find more arguments that a lawyer could use to claim it IS a prohibited location than I can find to say it ISN'T, then I leave the CCW behind.

[lrpettit]

Enclosed means all sides. A fence all the way around would constitute being an 'enclosed' field; look at the definition I posted above. However, if there was no gate to go through or open access with a side that was not fenced and could not be closed off and access restricted by closing a gate, etc, then I would say it was not enclosed.

Just remember, a good lawyer will be capable of working words to make them meet their needs during a court battle. So, if you got one that had an agenda to go after you for carrying in a prohibited place, they could make a good argument for their cause that might sway the Judge and/or jury to side with them.

Good points.

Especially about the lawyer.

One thing to add: Carrying in gray areas (30.06 sign not valid size or wording, school 'property' during certain events, etc) is a personal choice that each CHL holder must make for themselves. Every situation is different and the CHL'er must size up the situation and make their own go/no-go decision. If I have a gray area that I have to make a decision on I will look at it and say to myself 'Self, if you are caught carrying in this location can you make a really solid argument about why you chose to carry in the location and why it was NOT a valid prohibited location?'. If I can pose the question to myself in this manner and convince myself that it really isn't off-limits and that I am willing to argue that point even as far as court, then I will carry. If I can find more arguments that a lawyer could use to claim it IS a prohibited location than I can find to say it ISN'T, then I leave the CCW behind.

I think you also have to ask yourself if you're willing to spend the time and money to be the test case.

[Keith B]

One thing to add: Carrying in gray areas (30.06 sign not valid size or wording, school 'property' during certain events, etc) is a personal choice that each CHL holder must make for themselves. Every situation is different and the CHL'er must size up the situation and make their own go/no-go decision. If I have a gray area that I have to make a decision on I will look at it and say to myself 'Self, if you are caught carrying in this location can you make a really solid argument about why you chose to carry in the location and why it was NOT a valid prohibited location?'. If I can pose the question to myself in this manner and convince myself that it really isn't off-limits and that I am willing to argue that point even as far as court, then I will carry. If I can find more arguments that a lawyer could use to claim it IS a prohibited location than I can find to say it ISN'T, then I leave the CCW behind.

I think you also have to ask yourself if you're willing to spend the time and money to be the test case.

That is definitely a consideration. However, I won't let myself be talked out of carrying somewhere I know is legal just because someone may try to invalidly charge me for carrying in a prohibited place. I have seen CHL's decide to never carry for fear of someone trying get them with a bogus charge. While it can happen, it is very very rare and the charges will usually be dropped. If it happened to me, once I was vindicated I would go back to recover punitive damages and legal fees, time lost, etc for the bogus arrest and charge.

[Kodiak101]

It's a very interesting conversation. I went this evening to my other sons lacrosse game. The field is on school property. There is a fence around the field, but anyone can enter the stands. There is no gate or fence around the stands.

There is a bathroom under the stands.

With this facility can I carry in the stands but not use the bathroom?

If it is an enclosed structure on owned by the school, then no you cannot carry there. Also, you said your son's sport was a league, but why are they allowed to use the school athletic fields? There may be a gray area if the school is sponsoring the league in a manner that they are allowing them to use the field at no cost. I am not a lawyer, but if I were a DA and wanted to push the issue I could argue that the school was sponsoring the event by giving them the fields to play on at no charge.

Sorry for the late response, I was at another practice yesterday. The sport lacrosse is not recognized in Texas as a school sport. So we joined a league which has permission to use school grounds for games, not practices. Practices are held on a city park with no 30.06 sign.

It really is one of the gray areas and I have had that self question many times. The Libertarian in me wants to keep carrying there.