CHL holder pulls gun at Sears

[mecoseko]

Ok- so here is my situation:
Its Thanksgiving night I'm in one of those black Friday lines at Sears in San Antonio when all of a sudden two guys directly behind me start going at it one guy gets knocked on the ground and while the other guy is on top of him he manages to pull his gun...At this point the store erupts into Chaos with people running out with merchandise, ladies screaming, people jumping over registers and behind isles. Well the guys stands up and has his firearm pointed at the guy who was beating him down and then starts looking around at everyone else not necessarily aiming his gun but moving it in a sweeping motion as if worried someone is gonna jump him from behind. At this point nobody knows this guys intentions or that he is licensed, only that he has a gun and he is not putting it down. He remains in this defensive stance for about 5 minutes just sweeping the room to make sure no one jumps him from behind. Finally the Police show up after about 10 minutes and after about 30 minutes everything returns to normal and they explain that he was a CHL holder and was within his right?? Let me tell you, if I had my CHL that day and I was carrying in the store that evening and this guy pulls a gun and is sweeping it around the room with young children all around and innocent people...he guts one right between the eyes.

My question is, in this situation this guy was cleared (After taking my CHL class I now know that I had the right to press assault charges since he swepped his gun towards me) of any wrong doing, but if I had taken action and shot the guy in order to stop the threat, would I have faced any charges here?

[Beiruty]

Welcome and this is dicey. The man with CHL, assuming he was and drew in self-defense, and you as CHLer and witness to the incident, you should judge what happened and figure out what happened and why it happened.

It is your duty to know when to draw and when to shoot. Over-reacting and being Hastefully with you firearm can land you in prison for 20 to life.

[Fire1141]

I would suggest a chl badge/sash combo for identification purposes. Seriously, I'm gonna get my kids and wife safe then call the police. If, for some reason, I can't get myself or my family safe really quick, then I have to remove the threat. Better him than me. Very thought provoking scenario. Thanks

[RPB]

was there a threat...
1) where was his finger?
2) If you saw the guy acting defensively, on the ground etc, why assume he was acting offensively standing up instead of defensively?
3) If feeling threatened for those 5-10 minutes ... why not leave?
4) Why assume he is not an off duty officer?

That could go bad really fast if you shoot an off duty officer in haste, but you don't have to worry about cooking, doing laundry, buying clothes or paying utility bills for years ... the State would do it for you. Orange looks so much better than those old black and white striped referee type clothes

[Charles L. Cotton]

. . . Let me tell you, if I had my CHL that day and I was carrying in the store that evening and this guy pulls a gun and is sweeping it around the room with young children all around and innocent people...he guts one right between the eyes.

My question is, . . . if I had taken action and shot the guy in order to stop the threat, would I have faced any charges here?

Almost definitely. While his conduct was bizarre, you cannot engage unless you "reasonably believe deadly force is immediately necessary to prevent another from using or attempting to use unlawful deadly force." You may or may not be acquitted in trial, but either way you'll take a trip through the legal system. Since you apparently saw the events from the beginning (assault on the CHL), then the chance of an acquittal is much lower.

I seriously doubt any DA would accept assault charges under the facts as you stated. If so, then the defendant would be acquitted.

Chas.

[Diesel42]

No... it's not my job to break up fights or determine who's right in a fight behind me.
My CHL is not a Batman license.

I mean no personal criticism, but your words, "Let me tell you, if I had my CHL that day and I was carrying in the store that evening and this guy pulls a gun and is sweeping it around the room with young children all around and innocent people...he guts one right between the eyes." really concerns me. IMO, there's a big difference between a man holding a gun and an active shooter. I sincerely recommend you consider more training to evaluate when to clear the area and when you should engage.
My two cents,
Nick

[RPB]

No... it's not my job to break up fights or determine who's right in a fight behind me.
IMO, there's a big difference between a man holding a gun and an active shooter. I sincerely recommend you consider more training to evaluate when to clear the area and when you should engage.
My two cents,
Nick

I've seen people holding machetes, knives, guns ... even some sweeping them around in what I consider a careless manner at Academy/Gun Shows/Pawn Shops etc My "alert level" goes up, but no active shooter/guy stabbing etc = no threat yet

[ELB]

I have stopped being surprised -- but I am still amazed -- at the number of people who hang around a violent interaction, well within striking range of anything that goes wrong.

If the CHL holder was sweeping people with his muzzle, that was bad form, but there really should not have been anyone left standing around for him to sweep, especially if anyone had any doubt as to his "good guy" status.

In addition to all the other reasons listed above as to why it wasn't a good idea to shoot that guy, the fact that you and everyone else were still there looking at him as he swept the crowd with his gun tells me that no one really thought he was a threat. Ergo, tough case to make that he deserved to be shot.

[mecoseko]

I guess I failed to mention this altercation happened just inside the entrance doors and were all in line for TV's- unless you were behind them in line you werent able to exit because the guy with the gun was standing there holding his gun up trying to make sure that he wasnt attacked from behind. We all went behind a register and the guy just kept looking at everyone with a blank stare

[RoyGBiv]

Excellent scenario to think about. Pretty good description too.
I'll agree with others and wonder why you were still standing around instead of exiting the location (further into the store if the exit was blocked), but, thanks for sharing your experience and I'm very glad everything worked out without any serious injury.

[mecoseko]

And in reply to the post above- We did not know his status if it was good guy or bad guy, all we knew was that these two grown men were in a fight and both threw punches, one got the better punch in and the one who was on the ground pulled his gun.

At this point, frenzy breaks out and everybody is pushing and shoving to get behind something, Im on the line with 911 along with several other people hiding behind a register trying to keep a view of the gun man. We had no way of knowing if he was a cop, a victim, a killer etc.. all we knew was that he had a gun, with an overly packed Electronics department full of innocent people, and he had reached a point of no return. He drew his weapon and after the the threat from the other fighter was eliminated he did not turn and leave even after several customers were pleading with him to put the gun down and leave. he just had a blank stare as if he was in disbeleif of the situation

[Gameover]

Dont shoot! This guy was in defence mode not active shooter mode. You saw the event unfold from the beginning so I dont believe you can say you feared for your life when you knew the guy was trying to defend himself. If it was me I would have been gone soon as the fighting broke out. The people that go to these black friday sales tend to be a little crazed so I try and avoid them at all costs.

Welcome to the forum

[G26ster]

Let me tell you, if I had my CHL that day and I was carrying in the store that evening and this guy pulls a gun and is sweeping it around the room with young children all around and innocent people...he guts one right between the eyes.

Wow, I think you need to re-think what you are saying here. You must be a great shot to get him "right between the eyes." No one else in the line of fire behind/near him? No chance of another CHL there who might take the same action against you thinking you are the aggressor, as they'd be doing the same as you said you would do? After all, you have YOUR gun out, and YOU fired it, the other guy didn't. You even said he wasn't even aiming it. Having a CHL or not should not change your actions. Move away from the action as fast as you can. I think all of the replies you got were good advice IMHO.

[snakeyez78]

As others have stated, you need to be able to determine the threat. I also would like to mention that the purpose of a CHL is for personal protection ie defensive purposes, the methods for which you carry and train for are completely different than offense purposes. As CHL holder it is not for you to be QRF team member or a SWAT team member or even as a first responder. I do believe in your right to "Stand your ground", and also to act to take "safe retreat".

When I was younger and had not lived though any active shooting experiences, I too trained and thought I would protect all from any violence. I too felt that I would /should drop any armed threat where it stood. But as I recall my experiences I still fear the risks I took and to this day still do, people like you and my younger self, caused me to reconsider the "helping all / stopping all" mind set. Now I will act when there is not other course of action, when my life or my families is threaten. My good dead could be mistaken as violence and now im the threat / target.

I will say this last thing, knowing that it might offend some. A total strangers life is not worth mine whether it means me being locked up or boxed up, I have a family to think about. the risk taken can easily cost you large sums of money in legal, medical and even possibly employment. You will be arrested in most cases, you will have to post bail, and you will have a trail to defend you actions. Although it often goes in your favor, it might not!

[mecoseko]

Snake Eyez You make alot of sense and your post really opened up my eyes- Thanks