Mental Illness Database?

[tvone]

Should there be a database for licensed physicians (Psychologists) to report patients that are a danger to themselves and others that can be included in a NICS check?

I think so, and here's my personal example.

From 1984 to 1997, I held an FFL, and had a part-time business out of my house selling firearms and accessories.

During that time I got married. As a wedding present, I gave her a 9mm handgun, and one year later, my wife's mental illness became uncontrollable without heavy medication. There were still times that I felt unsafe sleeping in the same house for fear of a steak knife in my stomach while I slept. Obviously, I locked everything up tight. Soon she was committed voluntarily to a psychiatric hospital for 6 weeks. She was never really the same after that, and after several years of seeing professional help, one took me aside suggested that I should consider getting out of the marriage. 4 years later, I did. During the divorce in 1994, she wanted her handgun back. I refused, but found that since she voluntarily committed herself, and according to her and her lawyer, she was perfectly sane.

My response: I talked directly to her lawyer, and said I would transfer the firearm into his name. If he felt so sure that she was sane, then he could give it back to her.... He convinced her to take a couch instead. In 1997, I re-married, and she went off.

I'm not talking about those with mild depression. I'm talking about severe cases of mental illness. In my case, my ex-wife was a danger to others and herself. If she goes off her meds, it gets ugly. I'm in contact with her mother every so often and I keep an eye out for her. Her parents also agreed that I should get out. To this day, she still blames me for everything that gone wrong in her life.

Would that have prevented the massacre at VT? Maybe not, but the sale would have been refused, and a red flag would have gone up somewhere saying a nutcase tried to buy a gun. I know that I would want my ex stopped from walking into a store and purchasing a firearm. Can she buy one FTF? Sure, but that is another step I would want her to take.

Thoughts?

[jimlongley]

Should there be a database for licensed physicians (Psychologists) to report patients that are a danger to themselves and others that can be included in a NICS check?

Nope, the "danger to themselves and/or others" definition is just way too hazy and subjective. What one sees as destructive may be seen by another as reactive, and by another as merely a societal norm.

When my first wife became ill I dropped into a depression that would easily have put me on the list. I did a lot of self-destructive things, more than I care.

Up until that time I would have been considered just an average upstanding member of the community, a volunteer fireman for 17 years (and some of those guys ARE nuts) a Special Olympics volunteer, a Red Cross volunteer, an NRA instructor, and more, but during that time you could have found any number of people who would swear that I was right off my rocker and ready to do mayhem.

I got better, with the help of my friends and most particularly my high school sweetheart, who is now my wife, but I don't think I would have ever gotten off the list, heck, fourteen years later I still have a couple of my late wife's unpaid (due to her deceased condition) accounts on MY credit report despite my attempts to remove them.

When I was at TSA a co-worker "disappeared" from work one day, and then we found out that he supposedly had an unrevealed arrest record - he was on a list. Unfortunately it was a case of mistaken identity, but he never got his job back, and I'll bet he's still on Homeland Security's list.

No, a list like that is just too dangerous.

[seamusTX]

Should there be a database for licensed physicians (Psychologists) to report patients that are a danger to themselves and others that can be included in a NICS check?

IMHO, no.

In the first place, I think the standard would be too subjective. Many people in the medical field are extremely anti-RKBA and would report too many patients. It would essentially make people guilty until proven innocent, and I don't know how someone can get off the NICS restricted list.

In the second place, any time a physician or psychologist can report patients to the legal system, it makes patients hold back information or refuse to seek treatment. That's why medical personnel do not report illegal drug use.

As you say, even if people who are mentally ill are denied firearms through the NICS, they can obtain them by other means. They can use weapons other than firearms. It's easy to find instructions for making bombs on the Internet. It's even easier to crash a vehicle into a crowd, and crazy people occasionally do that.

We always have to balance the rights of the many law-abiding people against the few extreme criminals or mentally ill people.

- Jim

[jimlongley]

Should there be a database for licensed physicians (Psychologists) to report patients that are a danger to themselves and others that can be included in a NICS check?

IMHO, no.

In the first place, I think the standard would be too subjective. Many people in the medical field are extremely anti-RKBA and would report too many patients. It would essentially make people guilty until proven innocent, and I don't know how someone can get off the NICS restricted list.

In the second place, any time a physician or psychologist can report patients to the legal system, it makes patients hold back information or refuse to seek treatment. That's why medical personnel do not report illegal drug use.

As you say, even if people who are mentally ill are denied firearms through the NICS, they can obtain them by other means. They can use weapons other than firearms. It's easy to find instructions for making bombs on the Internet. It's even easier to crash a vehicle into a crowd, and crazy people occasionally do that.

We always have to balance the rights of the many law-abiding people against the few extreme criminals or mentally ill people.

- Jim

There's a point I forgot, thank you, I fired my old family doctor because she tried to lecture me about the evils of gun ownership, and I'm sure that she would have put me on a list if given a chance.

[pbandjelly]

If that person is diagnosed as being a threat to themselves, then they are not supposed to be out and about.

not to mention patient/doctor confidentiality agreements, as well as HIPAA (Health Information Portability and Accountability Act), you'd be hard pressed to have a nat'l database.

I see where you are coming from, but it's just not something that is good (because a database could be abused), IMO

[tvone]

"When my first wife became ill I dropped into a depression that would easily have put me on the list. I sat parked on the bridge steeling myself up to jump (plenty of guns at home too) and only gave up on the idea upon long reflection. I assaulted a doctor. I drove while intoxicated (and didn't get caught, but if I had . . .) and spent a lot of days at work in an alcoholic haze."

At that time in your life, your family and friends would most likely wanted you on that list. You were on the edge, in a stupor of alcohol, DIU, and had access to firearms with thoughts of killing yourself. It wasn't a permanent situation, nor should you be on that list permanently.

edited for spelling.

[Lucky45]

I agree with you. I'm not too much interested in a database because I know it will be a privacy issue and not really feasible.
I think a good solution would be that you have to bring a NEW form...the ATF Form 666 (aka Nutcase form) that is filled out by a licensed doctor within the last 30 days. The form was basically inform us that the applicant is not a nutcase and has not had a nutcase episode in the last 2,3,4 or whatever years that would disqualify him/her. That way nobody is going over your medical records but your doctor. Maintain your privacy. They do this kind of stuff all the time in immigration cases and other employment.
I think it would work.

[txinvestigator]

I agree with you. I'm not too much interested in a database because I know it will be a privacy issue and not really feasible.
I think a good solution would be that you have to bring a NEW form...the ATF Form 666 (aka Nutcase form) that is filled out by a licensed doctor within the last 30 days. The form was basically inform us that the applicant is not a nutcase and has not had a nutcase episode in the last 2,3,4 or whatever years that would disqualify him/her. That way nobody is going over your medical records but your doctor. Maintain your privacy. They do this kind of stuff all the time in immigration cases and other employment.
I think it would work.

So everyone who wants to buy a firearm would have to have a psychological examination ahead of time?

[jbirds1210]

In the first place, I think the standard would be too subjective. Many people in the medical field are extremely anti-RKBA and would report too many patients.

I agree 100%

[Lucky45]

So everyone who wants to buy a firearm would have to have a psychological examination ahead of time?

It should not be an examination. It should be a verification that you have not been admitted or had a mental episode in the previous time period. Doctor should able to verify confidentially through whatever channels they have and then sign papers. they should be able to find out if you were in mental institution or not from records.

[tvone]

When a person is convicted of a felony, they are incarcerated, and they are barred from possession of a firearm unless they get their rights re-instated upon release..

When someone is committed to a psychiatric hospital because their mental state is uncontrollable, and have been deemed harmful to themselves and others, shouldn’t something similar apply?

I agree that there is room for abuse. You have that in almost every situation. Look at the CHL database. Can’t your employer get access to that information to see if you hold a permit? If you work for Canon in Irving, TX, that would put you under suspicion of violating company policy. I work for a company that is very left-wing, and company policy forbids firearms on company property and in company vehicles. I sometimes go places in the wrong parts of town late at night to do my job. I follow company policy. I don’t like it, but I love what I do, and have great benefits and a flexible schedule. I’m aware of my surrounding when I go. I would go on record saying EVERY major company in my industry is the same.

[Lucky45]

it is one thing for someone to be mentally unstable where you take time off work and some over counter pills. Then there is mentally unstable where a professional doctor or a court has to decide that you must be confined physically in a special location for a determined amount of time, sometimes medicated heavily.
I would hope they deny the latter. It should not be a life sentence, but you can't have these episodes in last whatever months to be determined.

[tvone]

Interesting enough...

O'Reilly is discussing this on his radio show now.

[jimlongley]

At that time in your life, your family and friends would most likely wanted you on that list. You were on the edge, in a stupor of alcohol, DIU, and had access to firearms with thoughts of killing yourself. It wasn't a permanent situation, nor should you be on that list permanently.

edited for spelling.

Like I said, I don't have confidence in getting off the list, and then there are those agencies that would keep copies of the old lists and refer back to them. Of course they're not supposed to, but we already know that there are lists of gun owners in various states that are supposed to have been destroyed and they still exist.

And in all that, stupor, stupid, etc, I never harmed or even threatened anyone with one of my guns, so if those people had put me on the list, they would have been wrong.

[tvone]

It's not the firearms I'm worried about. It's the mental status of the individual. Just because you didn't threaten anyone with your firearms, didn't mean you weren't a threat to youreself at that time.

My ex never threatened to harm herself or others with a firearm. I still wouldn't want her to have access to a firearm through a dealer. It was her mental state I was worried about. I'm not blaming firearms.

To all, thanks for keeping this discussion civil!