Another CHL at work question...

[Canonshooter]

This is my first post and just wanted to say that I am glad to have finally joined this forum! There is a wealth of info here and seem to be a bunch of great people!

I am looking for opinions regarding CHL and City employees. I will not name the city, but the Personnel Rules state the standard "no firearms".
My question is, being that there is no specific reference to CHL (besides parking lot) and since 30.06 does not apply, what are your thoughts on carrying at work? I don't (carry at work). But I was considering "asking" for specifics regarding this policy. Now that may not be the best course of action, but I am concerned that my right to protect myself stops when I get to work. I am sure that I'm not alone in this, there are many City employees that work alone in the some of the highest violent crime rate areas in the State! Thoughts?


(16) Possession of weapons.

(A) Possession of a weapon capable of causing serious bodily injury is prohibited on city property, unless specifically authorized and work related.

(B) In this paragraph, a weapon capable of causing serious bodily injury means, but is not limited to:

(i) any firearm;

(ii) any illegal knife, including but not limited to:

(aa) a knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;

(bb) a hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;

(cc) a dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stiletto, or poniard;

(dd) a bowie knife;

(ee) a sword; and

(ff) a spear;

(iii) a switchblade knife;

(iv) any club, including but not limited to:

(aa) a blackjack;

(bb) a nightstick;

(cc) a mace; and

(dd) a tomahawk;

(v) any explosive weapon or device;

(vi) a firearm silencer;

(vii) knuckles;

(viii) ammunition;

(ix) a zip gun;

(x) any chemical dispensing device;

(xi) any caustic or corrosive liquid, such as acid or lye, capable of causing serious bodily harm; and

(xii) a taser.

(C) All other terms used in this paragraph have the meanings respectively given to them in the Texas Penal Code, as amended.

(D) An employee's personal belongings located on city property may be searched if there is reasonable suspicion that the employee is in possession of a weapon capable of causing serious bodily injury on city property.

(E) Small personal canisters of pepper spray are permitted.

(F) Notwithstanding Paragraph (16)(A) of this subsection, an employee who holds a license to carry a concealed handgun, or who otherwise lawfully possesses a firearm or ammunition, may possess the firearm or ammunition in a locked, privately-owned vehicle in a city parking lot, a city parking garage, or any other parking area provided by the city for its employees.

(G) Every employee should refer to specific procedures, requirements, and definitions regarding possession of weapons that are additionally outlined in the administrative directives of the city.

[Lambda Force]

I am looking for opinions regarding CHL and City employees. I will not name the city, but the Personnel Rules state the standard "no firearms".
My question is, being that there is no specific reference to CHL (besides parking lot) and since 30.06 does not apply, what are your thoughts on carrying at work?

It's probably not illegal to carry outside your car but they can fire you unless your (union) contract says otherwise.

[Oldgringo]

How well do you like your job? Therein lies your answer.

[lou]

I don't like my job but I need a job.

[Oldgringo]

I am looking for opinions regarding CHL and City employees. I will not name the city, but the Personnel Rules state the standard "no firearms".
My question is, being that there is no specific reference to CHL (besides parking lot) and since 30.06 does not apply, what are your thoughts on carrying at work?

It's probably not illegal to carry outside your car but they can fire you unless your (union) contract says otherwise.

Does "not illegal" equal "legal"? Just askin'...

[Canonshooter]

Thanks for the responses. Yeah, I just recall that some other personnel rules were more specific in also stating something to the effect of "regardless of CHL". So at this point does anyone think it would be an OK idea to somehow bring the issue up to the City Attorneys office for review? All they can say is "no"...or "HELL NO!" I'm sure liability is of more concern than safety, so maybe I can plant a seed that liability goes both ways i.e. What if an act of violence could have been avoided if CHL was allowed? Just a thought.

Working in an environment where only the bad guys are armed and don't care about consequences, just would seem to be a pretty good reason to allow CHL at work. Just sayin!

And yes I need the job, so unfortunately, as long as we're not allowed to defend ourselves once we get to work, I'll just "leave it in the car".

[speedsix]

...in a state where they can fire for almost any reason, I wouldn't rock the boat with the City Attorney on this one...you're protected to and from work...but I've worked for a city which issued sidearms and forbad us to carry our own...and because of my personal feelings about my safety...I carried forbidden ammo in it, a .45 as backup, and a .38 in my boot...and don't know if the union could have saved my job had I been found out...

...the chance of you getting it changed by asking about it is very small...getting undue attention as a problem...possible...we all have to choose our battles...may you never need it...except when you have it!!!

[bkj]

30.06 does not apply to your employer.

GC CH. 411. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY OF THE STATE
OF TEXAS
Subch. H. LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN

GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS. This subchapter does not
prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to
prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying
a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

30.06 does not apply to your employer. If you are informed in any manner by your employer that firearms are not allowed you can be charged under 30.05.
PC §30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS

(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:
(A) the offense is committed:
(i) in a habitation or a shelter center;
(ii) on a Superfund site; or
(iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or
(B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission
of the offense.

[MasterOfNone]

30.06 does not apply to your employer.

GC CH. 411. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY OF THE STATE
OF TEXAS
Subch. H. LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN

GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS. This subchapter does not
prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to
prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying
a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

30.06 does not apply to your employer. If you are informed in any manner by your employer that firearms are not allowed you can be charged under 30.05.
PC §30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS

(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:
(A) the offense is committed:
(i) in a habitation or a shelter center;
(ii) on a Superfund site; or
(iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or
(B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission
of the offense.

You left out 30.05(f), which provides a defense if the prohibition you violated is for handguns:

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

[RPB]

I'm sure liability is of more concern than safety, so maybe I can plant a seed that liability goes both ways i.e. What if an act of violence could have been avoided if CHL was allowed? Just a thought.

You'd have to overcome their first 2 words ... Sovereign immunity.
However, that might could work in your favor too. I"m too tired to think it through, ... missed shots by State Certified police officer ... by State Licensed CHL employee

dunno

I wouldn't rock the boat with the City Attorney

Years ago, I asked a criminal Prosecutor about the unenforceable sign at the County Tax office and he said he'd prosecute because they have administrative hearings so he'd consider it a Court (the sign was later removed... as was that prosecutor

[bkj]

30.06 does not apply to your employer.

GC CH. 411. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY OF THE STATE
OF TEXAS
Subch. H. LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN

GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS. This subchapter does not
prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to
prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying
a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

30.06 does not apply to your employer. If you are informed in any manner by your employer that firearms are not allowed you can be charged under 30.05.
PC §30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS

(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:
(A) the offense is committed:
(i) in a habitation or a shelter center;
(ii) on a Superfund site; or
(iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or
(B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission
of the offense.

You left out 30.05(f), which provides a defense if the prohibition you violated is for handguns:

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

I refer back to GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS
Go to the DPS web site and read the Attorney General Opinions

[punkndisorderly]

What follows is my understanding of the law. If I get it wrong, please correct me.

Under the parking lot bill, you are fine legally to carry to and from work as long as the person leaves the gun in their locked vehicle upon arrival and doesn't fall into one of the exemptions (school district, property leased by oil company, etc). As for the employer, they can fire you for doing so as long as they don't specify that as the reason you were fired.

Once you arrive at work, if company policy says no, and you've been apprised of that policy, you are guilty of criminal trespass. If you have not been apprised of policy, or there is no policy, you are fine legally, as long as you leave after being told and do not repeat the action. Your employer can fire you regardless.

The exception would be if employed at a 30.06 posted business (bar, posted hospital) or always prohibited place (school, federal court) in which case you would always be in violation of 30.06

[MasterOfNone]

30.06 does not apply to your employer.

GC CH. 411. DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY OF THE STATE
OF TEXAS
Subch. H. LICENSE TO CARRY A CONCEALED HANDGUN

GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS. This subchapter does not
prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to
prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying
a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

30.06 does not apply to your employer. If you are informed in any manner by your employer that firearms are not allowed you can be charged under 30.05.
PC §30.05. CRIMINAL TRESPASS

(3) a Class A misdemeanor if:
(A) the offense is committed:
(i) in a habitation or a shelter center;
(ii) on a Superfund site; or
(iii) on or in a critical infrastructure facility; or
(B) the person carries a deadly weapon during the commission
of the offense.

You left out 30.05(f), which provides a defense if the prohibition you violated is for handguns:

(f) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:
(1) the basis on which entry on the property or land or in the building was forbidden is that entry with a handgun was forbidden; and
(2) the person was carrying a concealed handgun and a license issued under Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, to carry a concealed handgun of the same category the person was carrying.

I refer back to GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS
Go to the DPS web site and read the Attorney General Opinions

If you are referring to Attorney General Opinion No. DM-363, it states:

Under section 30.05 of the Penal Code, any person, including a license holder, who enters or remains on property or in a building of another carrying a concealed handgun without effective consent to carry and who has had notice that concealed handguns are prohibited commits a criminal offense.

But that opinion was issued in 1995. That was before 30.06 was added (1997) and before 30.05(f) was added (2003). The law upon which that opinion was issued has clearly changed so that 30.05 does not apply.

[Lambda Force]

30.06 does not apply to your employer.

What does that mean?

An employer can post a 30.06 and that applies in buildings. It doesn't apply in your own car in parking lots for most employers after 9/1/11 but it applies to their other property.

An employer can have an HR policy that prohibits guns, but 30.06 requires specific notice. They can fire you for violating HR policy, but it's not a crime to violate HR policy about guns, unless they give 30.06 effective notice or your workplace is a prohibited place even without the HR policy, like a courthouse.

[jdlott74]

My DH used to work for the city, not naming any particular city, in TX, BUT he legally had his CHL at that time. The job he was doing was risky, and he was driving a city vehicle on a daily basis. That being said, he was probably not supposed to carry, but I'm sure he did considered his job and his habits with carrying everywhere he goes. The key is if you are going to carry, DON'T get caught, don't do anything stupid to get caught and know that if you do get caught, you will probably lose your job. The city has a right, especially if you are driving one of their vehicles to restrict you from carrying. The question is do you want to chance it and get caught.