The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

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Crossfire
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#76

Post by Crossfire »

sjfcontrol wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:
srothstein wrote:Ameer,

What do you call them when they support some bills such as the CHL law to begin with. They may not be pro-gun, but they are certainly not anti-gun either.

That puts them right where the vast majority of the public is, somewhere in the middle. But with legislators, there are always other factors to consider also. Some may be very pro-gun but have to vote against a bill for some other reason. For example, Perry vetoed a gun bill I really wanted to see passed this last session (pertained to retired officers). I cannot call him anti-gin for this. He explicitly stated the veto was because of an unrelated amendment that would have changed traffic laws (banned texting while driving). I am certain that his long term stance is close to mine on guns, but politics raised its ugly head.

By understanding some of the other factors involved, we (gun rights activists) can maintain a cordial working relationship with the legislators. That make us much more likely to get more of what we wanted passed than if we antagonize them over some votes. Long term, this is the only way to get to where we (well, I) want to be - a repeal of chapter 46 totally.
I did not realize Perry was in the pocket of cell phone companies. Knowing his stance on that just cost him my vote. Texting while driving is about the most ignorant thing a person can do.
I presume you're being facetious about Perry being in the pocket of cell phone companies. The bottom line is that it shouldn't be necessary to make every possible activity that is dumb or dangerous, illegal. We already have laws regarding negligence behind the wheel. Those laws should be sufficient.
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#77

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Negligence behind the wheel laws do nothing about the FACT that most accidents are caused by ignorant, inconsiderate fools, texting or talking on cell phones while driving. I suppose we should get rid of drinking while driving laws too. Maybe speed limit rules are completely wrong. We should be allowed to drive as fast as we want, as long as we are not being reckless. :tiphat:

Driving is not a right! It is a privilege. It should be regulated by the state to insure we have safe highways.

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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#78

Post by Ameer »

If they're driving unsafely by violating Texas Transportation Code 545.060, 545.062, 545.104, 545.363, 545.401, etc. then they can already be ticketed. On the other hand, If they're driving safely in a private vehicle, then I don't think the law should penalize some distractions if it doesn't penalize others. Cell phones, CB radios, XM radios, screaming children, nagging spouses, drinking coffee, etc. can all be distractions.
I believe the basic political division in this country is not between liberals and conservatives but between those who believe that they should have a say in the personal lives of strangers and those who do not.
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#79

Post by sjfcontrol »

As I recall, that texting-while-driving law would have made it illegal to text -- even short messages -- while stopped at a stoplight.

Also, beware of unintended consequences. Make it illegal, and people will still text, but by keeping the phone in their lap, will be even LESS safe on the road.

Ultimately, laws of that nature are about control. The end result will be to make it illegal to use a cellphone in a car at all. It's not about phones (or guns), it's about control.
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#80

Post by Crossfire »

03Lightningrocks wrote:Negligence behind the wheel laws do nothing about the FACT that most accidents are caused by ignorant, inconsiderate fools, texting or talking on cell phones while driving. I suppose we should get rid of drinking while driving laws too. Maybe speed limit rules are completely wrong. We should be allowed to drive as fast as we want, as long as we are not being reckless. :tiphat:

Driving is not a right! It is a privilege. It should be regulated by the state to insure we have safe highways.
You have the facts to backup that claim? I am very doubtful that MOST accidents are caused by cell phone use - whether talking, texting, or whatever.
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#81

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

sjfcontrol wrote:As I recall, that texting-while-driving law would have made it illegal to text -- even short messages -- while stopped at a stoplight.

Also, beware of unintended consequences. Make it illegal, and people will still text, but by keeping the phone in their lap, will be even LESS safe on the road.

Ultimately, laws of that nature are about control. The end result will be to make it illegal to use a cellphone in a car at all. It's not about phones (or guns), it's about control.

I am not sure of the reasoning here. It is illegal to drink and drive. I am not believing that this is causing people to hide the beer better. The sealbelt laws resulted in more people using seatbelts. I don't believe for one second that people will flagrantly violate the law. If they do, they will get a fine and they won't do it a second time. If we never passed laws because we believed folks will do what they want anyway, we would have no laws.

Phones are not in the same category as gun rights. You have a constitutional right to own guns. No such right exists with cell phones. I could also argue that you have a right to own a gun, but you have no right to use it in a way that endangers me or others.

It is not about "control". It is about all the dead people who are dead because morons are texting while driving. The real control is being perpetuated by cell phone companies. They stand to lose big money when it is illegal to text or talk on a cell phone while driving. Less texting and talking = less revenue for cell phone companies. That is the reality of the issue and the reason a sensible law concerning texting while driving will not get passed.

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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#82

Post by wharvey »

Cell phones may be an distraction but many other things are also, even those GPS systems that it seems some people can't do without. Truth is it is wrong to blame the device, just like you can't blame guns for crime you really can't blame cell phones. Blame the idiots driving down the road that put driving a low priority. Heck, I've even seen people reading newspapers, applying makeup, shaving, . . .

I guess too many people driving with out of state instead of Texas licenses. :biggrinjester:
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#83

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Crossfire wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:Negligence behind the wheel laws do nothing about the FACT that most accidents are caused by ignorant, inconsiderate fools, texting or talking on cell phones while driving. I suppose we should get rid of drinking while driving laws too. Maybe speed limit rules are completely wrong. We should be allowed to drive as fast as we want, as long as we are not being reckless. :tiphat:

Driving is not a right! It is a privilege. It should be regulated by the state to insure we have safe highways.
You have the facts to backup that claim? I am very doubtful that MOST accidents are caused by cell phone use - whether talking, texting, or whatever.
Here are a few good links. If not most, I would say 28% is way to many. How many denied being on the phone and never made the numbers?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 02218.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.accidentinfo.com/blog/when-y ... -accident/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by 03Lightningrocks on Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#84

Post by Keith B »

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Crossfire wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:Negligence behind the wheel laws do nothing about the FACT that most accidents are caused by ignorant, inconsiderate fools, texting or talking on cell phones while driving. I suppose we should get rid of drinking while driving laws too. Maybe speed limit rules are completely wrong. We should be allowed to drive as fast as we want, as long as we are not being reckless. :tiphat:

Driving is not a right! It is a privilege. It should be regulated by the state to insure we have safe highways.
You have the facts to backup that claim? I am very doubtful that MOST accidents are caused by cell phone use - whether talking, texting, or whatever.
Just one of thousands. Google is your friend. ;-)

http://www.accidentinfo.com/blog/when-y ... -accident/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That is not most of the accidents. They are caused by negligence and inatentaiveness, but not nessicarily by cell phone or texting.
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#85

Post by 03Lightningrocks »

Keith B wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Crossfire wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:Negligence behind the wheel laws do nothing about the FACT that most accidents are caused by ignorant, inconsiderate fools, texting or talking on cell phones while driving. I suppose we should get rid of drinking while driving laws too. Maybe speed limit rules are completely wrong. We should be allowed to drive as fast as we want, as long as we are not being reckless. :tiphat:

Driving is not a right! It is a privilege. It should be regulated by the state to insure we have safe highways.
You have the facts to backup that claim? I am very doubtful that MOST accidents are caused by cell phone use - whether talking, texting, or whatever.
Just one of thousands. Google is your friend. ;-)

http://www.accidentinfo.com/blog/when-y ... -accident/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That is not most of the accidents. They are caused by negligence and inatentaiveness, but not nessicarily by cell phone or texting.
LOL... splitting hairs does not mean texting while driving is not an issue. Is 28% confirmed enough for you? How many folks lied about it when questioned by police. The lady who hit me lied about it. I watched her texting as she hit me and she claimed she wasn't.
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#86

Post by Oldgringo »

03Lightningrocks wrote:
Keith B wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:
Crossfire wrote:
03Lightningrocks wrote:Negligence behind the wheel laws do nothing about the FACT that most accidents are caused by ignorant, inconsiderate fools, texting or talking on cell phones while driving. I suppose we should get rid of drinking while driving laws too. Maybe speed limit rules are completely wrong. We should be allowed to drive as fast as we want, as long as we are not being reckless. :tiphat:

Driving is not a right! It is a privilege. It should be regulated by the state to insure we have safe highways.
You have the facts to backup that claim? I am very doubtful that MOST accidents are caused by cell phone use - whether talking, texting, or whatever.
Just one of thousands. Google is your friend. ;-)

http://www.accidentinfo.com/blog/when-y ... -accident/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That is not most of the accidents. They are caused by negligence and inatentaiveness, but not nessicarily by cell phone or texting.
LOL... splitting hairs does not mean texting while driving is not an issue. Is 28% confirmed enough for you? How many folks lied about it when questioned by police. The lady who hit me lied about it. I watched her texting as she hit me and she claimed she wasn't.
Ladies and gentlemen do not text and drive. :mrgreen:
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#87

Post by sjfcontrol »

wharvey wrote:Cell phones may be an distraction but many other things are also, even those GPS systems that it seems some people can't do without. Truth is it is wrong to blame the device, just like you can't blame guns for crime you really can't blame cell phones. Blame the idiots driving down the road that put driving a low priority. Heck, I've even seen people reading newspapers, applying makeup, shaving, . . .

I guess too many people driving with out of state instead of Texas licenses. :biggrinjester:
As I've said before, the most distracting thing to a driver is driving with a couple of squabbling kids in the back. I think we need a law to prevent driving with children -- especially in school zones!

I've said my piece -- we don't need special laws regarding cellphone use in cars.
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#88

Post by Ameer »

Oldgringo wrote:Ladies and gentlemen do not text and drive. :mrgreen:
A cell phone is not a Bat Signal. :biggrinjester:
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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#89

Post by Oldgringo »

Ameer wrote:
Oldgringo wrote:Ladies and gentlemen do not text and drive. :mrgreen:
A cell phone is not a Bat Signal. :biggrinjester:
:smilelol5: Good one! "rlol"

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Re: The "Utah Problem" is back in uglier clothing

#90

Post by srothstein »

03Lightningrocks wrote:Negligence behind the wheel laws do nothing about the FACT that most accidents are caused by ignorant, inconsiderate fools, texting or talking on cell phones while driving. I suppose we should get rid of drinking while driving laws too. Maybe speed limit rules are completely wrong. We should be allowed to drive as fast as we want, as long as we are not being reckless. :tiphat:

Driving is not a right! It is a privilege. It should be regulated by the state to insure we have safe highways.

Well, you almost have it right, as I see it. If you had stopped after the word fools, I agree. Most accidents are caused by ignorant, inconsiderate fools. Phones, either talking or texting, are not nearly as big a concern as the idiot driving.

Someone else has already pointed out that the law would not be needed. Reckless driving is already against the law and there is no need for more laws banning stupidity. This was Perry's opinion when he vetoed the law. It was not to favor cell phone companies, but against more government intervention trying to prevent stupidity. Since I was interested in the bill, I watched more of the debate on this point than I wanted to. Zaffirini is the one who introduced the amendment, which was enough in itself to get me against it. The arguments in favor were that it was a dangerous activity. The arguments against were the bill was poorly written and was not needed.

As for some of the other laws, I could support removing the penalty from them. Who does it harm if you are driving at a high rate of speed, but are in control of the car? There are many people who have argued that it should not be against the law unless there is a real harm to a real person. I could see changing most of the traffic laws to do away with the penalty unless there is an accident. Then the law becomes a sliding scale with the grade of offense depending on the damage and injury. It determines who is at fault in the accident and is not a ticketable offense if there is no accident.

And I also believe you are wrong on one other point. Driving is a right, guaranteed by the 9th Amendment. we all agree that we have a right to travel, so the means to travel must also be a right. The logic of allowing firearms based on a right to self-defense would apply to driving and the right to travel. In addition, there were a few very old court cases that said so. The principle of equal access dates back to the earliest days of autos. People were allowed to use the streets in a horse-drawn wagon without a license. So, when a license was required for a car on the same street, lawsuits were filed. The basic result was court rulings that a state could not require a license for some people for streets that were accessible by all. Either all or none is the concept.

I don't know if any of these rulings are still available or upheld, but at least back when cars would scare the horse traffic that was the majority on the road, driving was considered a right.
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