ABC news controlled "study" - Wow!

[Thomas]

Too bad ABC didn't include footage from the 5th student that immediately dropped to the floor, quickly crawled around to the end of the table, and shot the bad guy 5 times before he realized what hit him.

...or at least that's what I would have done in their little scenario.

[terryg]

Too bad ABC didn't include footage from the 5th student that immediately dropped to the floor, quickly crawled around to the end of the table, and shot the bad guy 5 times before he realized what hit him.

...or at least that's what I would have done in their little scenario.

No, I don't think you would have. Not because you might not do so in an un-rigged environment. But because in this mouse trap, the BG knows exactly who has the gun. He would have proceeded directly toward you, ignoring other possible threats/targets, while you were still crawling to make the producers point. Just like the guy at 6:57 of the first video. He did duck for cover, but got exclusively targeted.

[Keith]

Yes the 3 lost but they did have a chance to defend themselves as compared to the others in the room that had no chance. I would much rather have a chance to win then no chance at all. I think thats why we all carry to just have some kind of chance to win.

Practice=Practice=Practice

[johnson0317]

I can't help but think what the outcome would have been if it had actually been fairly approached...or better yet, rigged in reverse. Too bad someone did not have a weapon the BG did not know about. I bet it would have been different then. Lot more fun to watch. That part never would have made it to the final cut.

[Paladin]

That video from ABC "news" is probably the most clever piece of propaganda I've ever seen.

It is 100% completely rigged.

If you want to see the outcome of a non-rigged classroom force-on-force scenario...here it is:

Force-on-Force Notebook (2007)

In a real active shooter scenario, if the classroom had warning of active shooter..."The shooter was denied entry and dispatched at the door."

Even if the active shooter attacked the classroom without warning, at most an active shooter would get 2-3 victims before they were gunned down. The only way for ABC to make the results different was that their SWAT instructor "active shooter" knew exactly where the concealed carrier was and attacked them before the other students. An extremely unlikely scenario in a room full of people.

Please note that Suarez International conducted their study of the classroom active shooter scenario in 2007, while the ABC "news" video was aired in 2008. I'm sure ABC "news" knew the truth... just like Dateline knew they were rigging gas-tanks

[srothstein]

If you want to do a study like this properly, it would take about 3000 students. I would select the students in groups of 25 to simulate a class. I would give each class 0,1, or 2 students with a CHL gun. I would repeat the class with and without arming the professor. Then I would give the class one or two bad guys. That is 3 * 2 * 2 possible scenarios. Repeat each scenario 10 times. This would give a large enough test universe to make a rational judgment.

Of course, I could never get this through any reasonable institution since the experiment itself would potentially harm the students. To be valid, you would have to tell them they were going to witness or be involved in a crime without telling anyone it was going to be a class room shooting. The potential harm is that the experiment may cause post traumatic stress in some of the students. No institution will allow that to happen unfortunately.

From a scientific standpoint, there were so many holes in the ABC scenario that it is almost amazing that they had the gall to air it. But given the history of the news media and some of their so called re-enactments, it is not really that surprising.

[kjolly]

Somehow this is meaningless in Texas where we failed to pass concealed carry on campus. Last time I looked the percentage of Texas CHL holders were about 1/100. In a classroom of 25 students and most of them underage the odds of there being a Concealed handgun in the classroom is pretty small. Factor in the number of people with a CHL that do not carry and it gets even smaller.

The news story does have everything rigged against a successful outcome as a dedicated CHL holder will have practiced and developed the muscle memory skill sets to react much more efficently and as stated in these scenerois the BG knew exactly who and where to target.

[DEB]

Yes the 3 lost but they did have a chance to defend themselves as compared to the others in the room that had no chance. I would much rather have a chance to win then no chance at all. I think thats why we all carry to just have some kind of chance to win.

Practice=Practice=Practice

I think this reason sums it up for me. I want that chance!! I don't know if I will succeed, but I do want that chance. If I am ambushed, got it, If someone is better or luckier than I, got it, but still, it is that chance that I seek. To better the odds, I train, shoot, and role play, even if it is in my mind, on how I want to react to different scenarios. I have a fear of kneeling/laying on a floor hearing gun shots get closer to me, so I pray that I will not only have the courage, but the means to act.

[Thomas]

- Double Post -

Sorry

[Thomas]

Somehow this is meaningless in Texas where we failed to pass concealed carry on campus. Last time I looked the percentage of Texas CHL holders were about 1/100. In a classroom of 25 students and most of them underage the odds of there being a Concealed handgun in the classroom is pretty small. Factor in the number of people with a CHL that do not carry and it gets even smaller.

Which is exactly why the anti-CHL argument, "everyone with a gun will start shooting each other because they don't know who the bad guy is" is completely bunk.

[ajwakeboarder]

Another issue that isn't covered is that while the CHL holder in this room is taken by surprise and possibly gunned down, what about one in another classroom that has a little warning and time to prepare themselves? They'd have the students get to the back of the room and have the door covered waiting. Then the CHL holder would have all the advantage.