ABC news controlled "study" - Wow!

[VMI77]

I think the video is sadly accurate. If we took the avg CHL holder OR avg off duty cop and threw them into a similar scenario, truly surprised, the results would be similar.

Like many others, I believe 100% that the video was rigged to get the result it got. They set up the premise that the only "win" was to stop the BG from shooting anyone. Others have mentioned the negatives built in against the CC individual (position known, wearing gloves, zero practice from concealment, etc.). BUT, no one has mentioned the NON-RELATION to the real world and the fact that it would have been a MAJOR "win" IF someone had stopped the VA Tech shooter after one or two victims, for instance...would saving over two dozen others' lives been a "win"? What if a CC person could have saved ONE LIFE from that horrible massacre? Would that have been a "win"? Or only a perfect scenario counts and otherwise we just give up? THAT is why that video is a bunch of HORSE MANURE...because my CHL is NOT so I can play hero or usurp YOUR JOB as LEO...it is to protect myself, my family/friends, and my property, if possible...and to minimize loss of life AS MUCH AS I CAN as the situation warrants. It doesn't make me a superhero, it simply helps to even the very lopsided odds. I ain't mad at ya, it just boils my blood how these collectivist types so desperately want us to just lay down and die...well I ain't ready to go just yet and I will do what I can to delay that inevitable day.

Exactly, and isn't it funny, that when it serves their agenda, the collectivists are perfectly capable of uttering the phrase: the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good?

[The Annoyed Man]

I don't deny that most CHL holders, myself included, can't be caught by surprise. After all, despite our best efforts to live in condition orange, I'm willing to bet that none of us lives there all the time. I consider myself a fairly aware person, and I have to remind myself to keep paying attention. But, I don't spend my life at U-shaped desks in lecture halls with only one entrance/exit. That room was a set up trap, and as others have pointed out, the "bad guy" had foreknowledge of who the shooters were and where they were sitting.

Moreover, this was specifically a setup intended to divert the desire of a young and somewhat deluded young man to obtain a carry license and then actually carry a weapon. The assumption that airsoft qualifies as firearms "training" when the subject has no firearms experience is vapid. Yes, it can be a valid training tool in specific situations, but one assumes firearms familiarity to begin with. Airsoft experience, in and of itself, is not a substitute for firearms experience.

[speedsix]

...seemed like the agenda was to discourage and discredit any citizen who wants a CHL to have an opportunity to protect ourselves and families...the term demagogue fits here nicely...

[Dragonfighter]

<SNIP>

Moreover, this was specifically a setup intended to divert the desire of a young and somewhat deluded young man to obtain a carry license and then actually carry a weapon. The assumption that airsoft qualifies as firearms "training" when the subject has no firearms experience is vapid. Yes, it can be a valid training tool in specific situations, but one assumes firearms familiarity to begin with. Airsoft experience, in and of itself, is not a substitute for firearms experience.

100%
And I agree with all of the statements pointing out the "set up". But I still gleaned some wisdom from the presentation. The key being mental preparedness and practice employing the weapon. Competency with a firearm is only half the battle.

BTW, anyone know where you can buy those paint rounds for practice? It would be nice to practice presentation and move n' shoot scenarios without worrying about Glock leg or strays.

[speedsix]

...have fun...


http://simunition.com/en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...my boys have smacked me with paintball guns enough I don't wanna play...

[CC Italian]

As soon as they said that the young man has experience with air-soft guns I laughed so hard I started choking on my coffee and bagel. My girlfriend’s teenage little brother plays commando with those things. Obviously this is the very worst case scenario using people who are very inexperienced with firearms and assailants who are extremely experienced.

I will agree that all of us including law enforcement will choke up or become less accurate and proficient under stress but how is this an accurate representation? The mocked up scenario in the class room is with young college students who had little experience and the assailant is a veteran firearms instructor? Of course the results are going to be bad!

Let’s take an average cop of the street and have a Navy Seal enter the room being the assailant and I bet results would be very similar! So I guess this video is saying we should just let someone come in and kill us and not even attempt to defend our lives if we have the opportunity!

This video showed that if you are very inexperienced with firearms and have no training that a trained firearms instructor will probably kill everybody in a classroom including an inexperienced CHL holder, what a surprise!

On that note I will train as much as I can and hope for the best and prepare for the worst! Obviously I will never be as tactically trained as a veteran firearms instructor whose job it is to train others but I will try my best to make my self as proficient as possible and hope that something like this never happens to me!

[terryg]

Here it is, from 2009: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23876" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Because this Topic has embedded videos, and because this was such a travesty by ABC, I think this new Topic should stand.

Sorry - I did search for the youtube video tags before I posted them.

[terryg]

I also think this was set up this way to highlight a weakness, but it was still set up. All the shooters were in the front row and the police knew who the one shooter in the room was going to be. In real life, a BG won't know where his resistance will come from.

This was the first thing I noticed. If you watch the scenes where they show you from the shooters POV, he taps the instructor and then IMMEDIATELY turns his extended weapon right where the 'CHL' holder is sitting - every single time. Let me ask, how many CHL holders would intentionally sit in the front row, in the middle of a long U shaped row (thereby greatly limiting your access and mobility)? I know I would chose to sit on the back row upon entering the room.

Even the one guy who did take cover, if the BG didn't know he was armed, I don't think he would have been perused in the same manner that he was in this scenario. Watch from 6:57 of the first video. The BG zeros in on him - occasionally targeting others, but only while moving in deliberately on the only armed person in the room which he couldn't not possibly have known was armed.

This part of the video proves that it was setup to fail and has little resemblance to a real scenario. Not that there are not some real aspects to this and that we should not and can not take lessons away from this. But it is clear that it is rigged to show the producers intent.

[seconds]

This video sequence was shown at my instructor training. Sgt. Bamsch pointed to it as meaningless insofar as providing any evidence (proof!!?? Ha!) that a person with a concealed weapon could do anything - or nothing, as the news wanted it to show. Completely rigged. I hope that it makes it on to the "official" CHL Youtube channel.

seconds

[tommyg]

The vid was rigged the holster was poorly designed probably on purpose
The BG player was a highly skilled instructor the average real BG usually has below average skills.
The masks the students were wearing would have been a big handicap not to mention the heavy gloves

[karder]

ABC news is about as politically liberal as it is possible to be. This was a completely set up shooting scene which would be very difficult for anyone to deal with regardless of their experience. The shooters were trained and knew the test. If trained commandos storm my office, I probably won't be able to stop them.

When I think of mass shootings, I think of Columbine, where a couple of teenagers walked the halls with no resistance shooting kids in the face who were hiding under desks. I think my concealed carry piece could make a difference in that situation.

I think of the VA tech shooter who took time to chain the door so no one could escape, and then walked around taking his sweet time executing students. A concealed carry license holder could have made a difference there too.

Creating silly scenarios that no one but a very highly trained and skilled shooter could survive, is not realistic or representative of real life situations. If an army ranger snaps and comes after me, I am probably out of luck, but I try to be ready for threats I am more likely to encounter.

[Zoomie72]

I am adding my harmless 2 cents to this video: Those Simunitions out of an M4 hurt like a mother!

[Bulldog1911]

I think the video is sadly accurate. If we took the avg CHL holder OR avg off duty cop and threw them into a similar scenario, truly surprised, the results would be similar.

I agree, but here's my problem with this particular one. The "test subject" was in always in the same seat. When the shooter entered the room each time, he shoots the professor and then turns directly to the "test subject" knowing which one will have the gun and exactly where they will be located. That's not a "real-life" scenario.

[esxmarkc]

I think the only redeeming part of the video is at 9:15 where he pulls out his simunitions gun and points it point blank at her bare face. Totally brilliant.

I think the video is sadly accurate. If we took the avg CHL holder OR avg off duty cop and threw them into a similar scenario, truly surprised, the results would be similar.

Absolutely. If you notice, when the "good guy" armed student enters the room, all the chairs in the room are filled except one - the one right up front where they want him trapped. Totally staged for a particular outcome.

Maybe Jack Bauer could have taken the bad guy down but I doubt anyone else would. As mentioned earlier, if the good guy caused the bad guy to focus all his rounds and attention on him for enough time for more to escape then it's a major win.

Let's see that test run again and let me choose and position the "random" 4 good guy students and let me pick the UNTRAINED bad guy shooter that goes in. Heck, I may even let the teacher be a good guy gun toter as well as one passer-by in the hall.

[¿Qué?]

Maybe it didn't help very much that the marks had guns, but it didn't make it any worse. Looks like ABC proved guns should be allowed at colleges.

We don't expect fire extinguishers to stop every fire. We don't expect AEDs to save every person who has a heart attack.