Walgreens Pharmacist Gets Fired for Defending...

[tbrown]

Agree. Overkill. Once down (generally), not a threat.

Standing, kneeling, or down is irrelevant.

The operative criterion is whether or not a deadly threat is present.

Someone lying on the ground, even fatally wounded, and pointing a gun at you can shoot you just as dead as he could while standing.

And if they're reaching for a gun, they're also a threat. Except in Oklahoma City.

[VMI77]

If true, here's what looks like could be another reason why some companies provide no security for employees: http://www.sjvgreens.org/archive05/dead_peasant.shtml --but it's an article from 2002 and may no longer be relevant. I tried to find the article on the Houston Chronicle site but while numerous sites provide a link to the Houston paper, the link returns a not found error. There is another source here http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-84829828.html. Looks to be the same but I didn't feel like signing up for the 7-day trial in order to see the entire article. I couldn't find it debunked anywhere, but then that leaves me making something of an argument from ignorance, and of course, proves nothing. Also, the article refers to litigation and I don't know how any of it turned out --supposedly dead peasant insurance is illegal in Texas, but some companies try to dodge the law by taking out the insurance in other states. The first linked article claims:

"Meanwhile, National Convenience Stores also has bought accidental death policies on its employees. When an employee died at work, such as in a robbery, NCS received $250,000, Clearman said.

The insurance came to light after an NCS manager died in a car wreck going to get change for the store, said Clearman, who represented the estate of the deceased employee, Ramon Pamez. The case is set for trial beginning Monday in state district court here.

Because it had insurance, NCS did not have incentive to provide security at the convenience stores, Clearman said.

At the same time, Diamond Shamrock was installing bulletproof glass and putting in two employees at night, Clearman said.

Between 1991 to 1995, Diamond Shamrock had one on-the-job death in Texas while NCS had nine, Clearman said."


And BTW, reading through the comments after the ABC article, someone claiming to be an employee of Walgreens says that the claimed "extensive training" in dealing with robberies is nothing more than a 3 minute video shown to new employees. It would be interesting to find out just what their "extensive training" really is.

[Excaliber]

Agree. Overkill. Once down (generally), not a threat.

Standing, kneeling, or down is irrelevant.

The operative criterion is whether or not a deadly threat is present.

Someone lying on the ground, even fatally wounded, and pointing a gun at you can shoot you just as dead as he could while standing.

And if they're reaching for a gun, they're also a threat. Except in Oklahoma City.

If this is a reference to the pharmacist who was recently convicted of homicide, it should be remembered that he fired multiple rounds on a subject who was down, unarmed, and unconscious.

I'd have a hard time making an imminent threat requiring a deadly force response out of that circumstance.

[Seabear]

OK I'll bite.

Before anyone thinks I agree with Walgreens let me start by saying NO, I think they could have handled this better,

Now let me play Devil's advocate. I know this is in Michigan, but let's play what if and put the guy in Texas. In one of the longest threads I've seen in a while viewtopic.php?f=7&t=48272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; the majority was all for having the guy in that thread fired because he violated company policy, and his CHL to be yanked for violation of the law. So is this case different just because the violation of company rules was in self defense?

GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS. This subchapter does not
prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to
prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying
a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

I am sure some will attack, trust me, there is no need to. I completely agree that Walgreens is handling this wrong, and I applaud the pharmacist for taking care of himself and his fellow employees, but if we are going to go by the book in one scene why not the next?

We can't choose which rules to follow and which to break ....or can we?

[bluejay71]

I agree with those of you who have observed that there is no difference between Walgreens and CVS. I urge you to find and support an independent pharmacy in your area. If you have insurance, your copay will be the same. Call around and ask for prices, let the indy know how much you've been paying and ask if he can match it. If he or she can come close, wouldn't it be great to give money to a local business rather than corporate lawyers?

I'd also be interested in hearing an anwer to the previous poster's question. Is breaking company policy akin to breaking federal/state law? Could they revoke his CHL?

[apostate]

I'd also be interested in hearing an anwer to the previous poster's question. Is breaking company policy akin to breaking federal/state law? Could they revoke his CHL?

If it happened in Texas, I don't know what grounds there would be for suspending (revoking) his CHL unless he was charged with (convicted of) a disqualifying offense. See §411.186 & §411.187, Government Code.

However, he's in Michigan so all bets are off.

[Seabear]

I'd also be interested in hearing an anwer to the previous poster's question. Is breaking company policy akin to breaking federal/state law? Could they revoke his CHL?

If it happened in Texas, I don't know what grounds there would be for suspending (revoking) his CHL unless he was charged with (convicted of) a disqualifying offense. See §411.186 & §411.187, Government Code.

However, he's in Michigan so all bets are off.

I agree, not here in Texas, but should we allow the employer to decide his unemployment status based on HR violations? Hmmmmm

[apostate]

Texas is an "at will" employment state and, I confess, I rather like it that way.

[C-dub]

OK I'll bite.

Before anyone thinks I agree with Walgreens let me start by saying NO, I think they could have handled this better,

Now let me play Devil's advocate. I know this is in Michigan, but let's play what if and put the guy in Texas. In one of the longest threads I've seen in a while viewtopic.php?f=7&t=48272" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; the majority was all for having the guy in that thread fired because he violated company policy, and his CHL to be yanked for violation of the law. So is this case different just because the violation of company rules was in self defense?

GC §411.203. RIGHTS OF EMPLOYERS. This subchapter does not
prevent or otherwise limit the right of a public or private employer to
prohibit persons who are licensed under this subchapter from carrying
a concealed handgun on the premises of the business.

I am sure some will attack, trust me, there is no need to. I completely agree that Walgreens is handling this wrong, and I applaud the pharmacist for taking care of himself and his fellow employees, but if we are going to go by the book in one scene why not the next?

We can't choose which rules to follow and which to break ....or can we?

If this had happened in Texas he probably still would have been fired. The big difference, as I see it, is that the pharmacist violated company policy in self defense. The ignoramous that fired off a round in his company doesn't have the same defense.

[Oldgringo]

I also sent then an e-mail and got the following reply

Dear David,


Thank you for contacting Walgreens regarding this matter. Our policies in this area are designed to maintain the maximum safety of our customers and employees.Store employees receive comprehensive training on our company’s robbery procedures and how to react and respond to a potential robbery situation. In past incidents, employees have told us they’ve found this training effective.These policies and training programs are endorsed by law enforcement, which strongly advises against confrontation of crime suspects.Compliance is safer than confrontation. Through this practice, we have been able to maintain an exemplary record of safety.We’ve made significant investments in security technology in recent years, including increasing the number of digital surveillance cameras at our stores.With upgrades to security technology, we are able to provide police with high-resolution photographs and video of crime suspects.We continue to invest in state-of-the-art security measures and high-definition surveillance equipment and hope that the apprehension of robbery suspects in the Benton Harbor area will prevent future crimes. Thank you for contacting Walgreens to share your comments.


Sincerely,


Benny H
Consumer Response Representative


Ref # 3084218

In other words, our high resolution video cameras will assist the coroner and homicide investigators in determining the identity of any individuals involved in the murder of our customers and employees.

That is exactly what they're saying.

Only unexposed soulless corporate beancounters could find comfort in that.

Fixed that, yes I did.

[The Mad Moderate]

You know what else "stops future crimes"? Dead criminals.

[knljr]

I'll take losing my job on the off chance that I have to use my weapon to defend myself vs the alternative, which in this case could have been very messy. As the guy says in the interview - they had already been robbed several times and he was working the evening shift. You bet your britches if I had a CHL, I'd be carrying in there...but I'd probably be looking for a different job at the same time...

[Seabear]

This was taken from another site here in Texas, written by a former Walgreens employee...

Well, as an employee for the good old W for 9 years (98-2007), I guess I should chime in....

Upon employment, Walgreens prints their robbery procedure right there in black and white in the handbook and on their computer training programs. Whether one thinks someone's actions are legitimate and deserving of merit doesnt matter.... he directly broke a written rule by the company who signs his paycheck. It would be no different than him stealing, showing up drunk, or sharing patient information. The rules are clear, and he clearly broke them...

I was written up once for chasing a lady who stole an armload of Sudafed (this was before they started keeping it behind the counter). I chased her right out the door... even caught her by the back of the collar.... Didnt matter, I was in direct violation of store policy. I knew it and was written up.

5 years later, I had a very similar situation, but I was already standing at the front door coming back into the store just days after the Katrina evacuation (our stores were riddled with thieves and what not, it was insane)... Anyway, guy came walking out holding the bottoms of the legs of his shorts closed with each hand... he had 4-5 of those giant 100 packs of burnable CDs that everybody used to buy. He was coming out while I was walking in and it was obvious that he was shoplifting, so I held him up at the door and we got into a little skirmish and his buddies pulled up in a truck and I ALMOST got myself in a bad situation. Luckily, there was another guy outside and he ran up and the guys jumped back in the truck and the theif ran off on foot. I got the 200 bucks in CDs back ANNNND got handed a slip for a 3 day, unpaid vacation. This instance was a little faster paced and didnt give me alot of time to react, but no doubt, I broke the rules again.

You all have been in a crowded Walgreens at 530 PM and seen the lines and lines of folks at all 3 windows... Can you imagine the problems with an RPh firing off rounds in a scene like that?

I couldnt tell you how many times I have had folks jump over the counter... You just stand out of the way and let them get after it. Of all the times, I didnt have not one person threaten anybody or try to have a physical altercation... its a jump and grab type thing.... Stay out of their way and let the cameras do the work.

Alot of times, you have no CLUE what these people are on or after. I could tell stories for days of the stuff I have seen and been through back there. I have been yelled at, cussed at, spit in my face on numerous occasions, had a knife pulled out, had a gun pulled out, been grabbed by the shirt, had my truck bashed up, been waited on by a family of lunatic after closing, had drinks thrown on me... I could go on and on.... there are some REALLY strange folks that frequent pharmacies, and if you stand between them and their narcotics, there is going to be trouble. On top of that, its hectic back there, everybody is cranky and sick and you are on a time clock to get things done, usually understaffed. Now you know why the employees arent so pleasant sometimes.... its a rough working atmosphere. But, at least its air conditioned!

I know alot of folks would commend a RPh for grabbing some rude jerkwad by the shirt and beating the **** out of him for being an ***, but guess what, thats against the rules too....

Walgreens followed their procedure, the RPh did not, and I dont even see why the courts are allowing this lawsuit to continue...


I carry a 40 and one reason is because of the insane folks that I have witnessed through all my days previously employed at Walgreens. Alot of folks dont realize what is running around on our streets until you see the number of pillheads coming in and out of one of their stores in one day. Its flat out scary AND even more scary that those folks drive vehicles up there!

[Oldgringo]

This was taken from another site here in Texas, written by a former Walgreens employee...

Well, as an employee for the good old W for 9 years (98-2007), I guess I should chime in....

Upon employment, Walgreens prints their robbery procedure right there in black and white in the handbook and on their computer training programs. Whether one thinks someone's actions are legitimate and deserving of merit doesnt matter.... he directly broke a written rule by the company who signs his paycheck. It would be no different than him stealing, showing up drunk, or sharing patient information. The rules are clear, and he clearly broke them...

I was written up once for chasing a lady who stole an armload of Sudafed (this was before they started keeping it behind the counter). I chased her right out the door... even caught her by the back of the collar.... Didnt matter, I was in direct violation of store policy. I knew it and was written up.

5 years later, I had a very similar situation, but I was already standing at the front door coming back into the store just days after the Katrina evacuation (our stores were riddled with thieves and what not, it was insane)... Anyway, guy came walking out holding the bottoms of the legs of his shorts closed with each hand... he had 4-5 of those giant 100 packs of burnable CDs that everybody used to buy. He was coming out while I was walking in and it was obvious that he was shoplifting, so I held him up at the door and we got into a little skirmish and his buddies pulled up in a truck and I ALMOST got myself in a bad situation. Luckily, there was another guy outside and he ran up and the guys jumped back in the truck and the theif ran off on foot. I got the 200 bucks in CDs back ANNNND got handed a slip for a 3 day, unpaid vacation. This instance was a little faster paced and didnt give me alot of time to react, but no doubt, I broke the rules again.

You all have been in a crowded Walgreens at 530 PM and seen the lines and lines of folks at all 3 windows... Can you imagine the problems with an RPh firing off rounds in a scene like that?

I couldnt tell you how many times I have had folks jump over the counter... You just stand out of the way and let them get after it. Of all the times, I didnt have not one person threaten anybody or try to have a physical altercation... its a jump and grab type thing.... Stay out of their way and let the cameras do the work.

Alot of times, you have no CLUE what these people are on or after. I could tell stories for days of the stuff I have seen and been through back there. I have been yelled at, cussed at, spit in my face on numerous occasions, had a knife pulled out, had a gun pulled out, been grabbed by the shirt, had my truck bashed up, been waited on by a family of lunatic after closing, had drinks thrown on me... I could go on and on.... there are some REALLY strange folks that frequent pharmacies, and if you stand between them and their narcotics, there is going to be trouble. On top of that, its hectic back there, everybody is cranky and sick and you are on a time clock to get things done, usually understaffed. Now you know why the employees arent so pleasant sometimes.... its a rough working atmosphere. But, at least its air conditioned!

I know alot of folks would commend a RPh for grabbing some rude jerkwad by the shirt and beating the **** out of him for being an ***, but guess what, thats against the rules too....

Walgreens followed their procedure, the RPh did not, and I dont even see why the courts are allowing this lawsuit to continue...


I carry a 40 and one reason is because of the insane folks that I have witnessed through all my days previously employed at Walgreens. Alot of folks dont realize what is running around on our streets until you see the number of pillheads coming in and out of one of their stores in one day. Its flat out scary AND even more scary that those folks drive vehicles up there!

, thank you for sharing.

[speedsix]

...companies have often quoted police as saying not to resist and to comply with the BG's demands...that was true in most cases back in the 70s, but today, it's more likely that they'll shoot/rape/etc. anyways...and LEOS know it...giving that advice today would be in bad faith...