CHL holder accidently discharges weapon at work question

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Same, I can walk to the range tomorrow (I will be DPS) while open carry, I will be open carry at the range 100% of the time. Will I be in violation of 46.035? You bet, but 46.035 does not apply when no CHL is needed, especially at the range. Another example. At the CHL school, a Police Officer was training us and showing us all kind of pistols, etc... The class was conducted in a rented room in a Medical Office.

Describe your walk "to the range" for me please. When you say you will be DPS what exactly does that mean?

As for the officer 46.02/46.035 do not apply to a LEO, period.

Either way you look at it this guy broke the law (46.035) and there is no "training" scenario you can come up with that will say otherwise according to 46.15(b)(3).

[Beiruty]

I do not follow your logic.
Under CHL you can carry your EDC anywhere lawful. As instructor, hundgun coach, you can train others with your concealed carry handgun, at anytime where you carry the activity safely, like in a private place, your house, like in a conference room, or at the range is where this is usually happens

Another simple example, you carry under CHL when you are outside your home coming back home for any reason, you unconceal and open carry at your home. Could you be charged with 46.035? You bet, no!

More examples, you carry concealed and you would like to disarm to avoid entry in 30.06 posted place, while in your car, you unholster and store your pistol in the glove box. under both CHL and MPA, the pistol must be concealed. However, you violated both 46.02 and 46,035 for the time while the pistol is exposed to the public view. It happens almost daily. Could you be charged with 46.035? You bet, no!

[Beiruty]

Same, I can walk to the range tomorrow (I will be at DPC) while open carry, I will be open carry at the range 100% of the time. Will I be in violation of 46.035? You bet, but 46.035 does not apply when no CHL is needed, especially at the range. Another example. At the CHL school, a Police Officer was training us and showing us all kind of pistols, etc... The class was conducted in a rented room in a Medical Office.

Describe your walk "to the range" for me please. When you say you will be DPS what exactly does that mean?

As for the officer 46.02/46.035 do not apply to a LEO, period.

Either way you look at it this guy broke the law (46.035) and there is no "training" scenario you can come up with that will say otherwise according to 46.15(b)(3).

Sorry, I was typing so fast. I meant, I will be at Dallas Pistol Club. You can park your car on the street and walk to the range while open carrying your pistol.

Note: at Dallas Pistol Club, the parking lot on the club property and no one usually park outside at the street.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

I do not follow your logic.
Under CHL you can carry your EDC anywhere lawful. As instructor, hundgun coach, you can train others with your concealed carry handgun, at anytime where you carry the activity safely, like in a private place, your house, like in a conference room, or at the range is where this is usually happens

Another simple example, you carry under CHL when you are outside your home coming back home for any reason, you unconceal and open carry at your home. Could you be charged with 46.035? You bet, no!

More examples, you carry concealed and you would like to disarm to avoid entry in 30.06 posted place, while in your car, you unholster and store your pistol in the glove box. under both CHL and MPA, the pistol must be concealed. However, you violated both 46.02 and 46,035 for the time while the pistol is exposed to the public view. It happens almost daily. Could you be charged with 46.035? You bet, no!

You are missing the biggest point here and that is if you carry under the authority of your CHL and you INTENTIONALLY FAIL TO CONCEAL you can be charged with violation of 46.035.

46.02 does NOT come into play here as you were carrying under the authority of your CHL.

As for OCing at your house you won't violate either 46.02 or 46.035 as you do not need to carry at your home under the authority of your CHL because in 46.02 it staes...

(a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

I am betting that if you are an instructor and attempt to OC because you are walking to "train" someone you will be charged with either 46.02, 46.035 or both. If you do not believe me please feel free to try it.

Also, if you are an instructor and are carrying under the authority of you CHL and pull your gun out to "train" someone I am betting you could get charged with violating 46.035.

In 46.035 there is one defense to prosecution and it says nothing about training...

(h) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (a) that the actor, at the time of the commission of the offense, displayed the handgun under circumstances in which the actor would have been justified in the use of deadly force under Chapter 9.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Sorry, I was typing so fast. I meant, I will be at Dallas Pistol Club. You can park your car on the street and walk to the range while open carrying your pistol.

Note: at Dallas Pistol Club, the parking lot on the club property and no one usually park outside at the street.

Ok but by your reading of the law its ok to have the weapon out so long as you are on your way to train. So, would you OC while walking from your house to the range(imagine your house is close to range)? If no why not?

[Beiruty]

Sorry, I was typing so fast. I meant, I will be at Dallas Pistol Club. You can park your car on the street and walk to the range while open carrying your pistol.

Note: at Dallas Pistol Club, the parking lot on the club property and no one usually park outside at the street.

Ok but by your reading of the law its ok to have the weapon out so long as you are on your way to train. So, would you OC while walking from your house to the range(imagine your house is close to range)? If no why not?

The law says you can open carry while on route from/to your car/house - to range. Distance has no effect. Yes, you can walk from your house to the range while open carrying.

or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence or motor vehicle

I will leaver further discussion on this topic for the resident lawyers.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Sorry, I was typing so fast. I meant, I will be at Dallas Pistol Club. You can park your car on the street and walk to the range while open carrying your pistol.

Note: at Dallas Pistol Club, the parking lot on the club property and no one usually park outside at the street.

Ok but by your reading of the law its ok to have the weapon out so long as you are on your way to train. So, would you OC while walking from your house to the range(imagine your house is close to range)? If no why not?

The law says you can open carry while on route from/to your car/house - to range. Distance has no effect. Yes, you can walk from your house to the range while open carrying.

or is en route between the premises and the actor's residence or motor vehicle

I will concede that it does appear to be legal to walk to and from the premises of the sporting activity while OCing according to 46.15. I do not know for sure but I believe it is a safe bet that if this is true one would not be able to make any "pit stops" gas station, work, grocery stores during this. If so either we would all just have to say "I am en route to/from the range/truck/house" or OC would be legal. Seeing how the guy in the OP was at work I still do not see this as his ticket out.

Also, this still does not allow you to intentionally display your weapon in public (not sport shooting ranges, as defined by Section 250.001, Local Government Code) for "training/sporting activity" purposes while carrying under the authority of your CHL (which is what the person in the OP was carrying under). 46.035 makes no mention of the "en route" defense for intentional failure to conceal. This only prevents you from being charged for violating 46.02. 46.15 does NOT say 46.02 AND 46.035 do not apply to a person who is en route between the premises and the actor's residence or motor vehicle. 46.15 ONLY says 46.02 doesn't apply in those circumstances.

So, again the guy in the OP who was carrying under the authority of his CHL and intentionally failed to conceal it is still in the wrong and should have his CHL revoked.

[E.Marquez]

I can't find it, I agree with you, if you want to show your buddy your new gun take him to the range. I think this guy is lucky he didn't end up in serious trouble.

Just for a curve ball.

Carry under the statues for concealed carry there is a section that covers failing to conceal. Got it no debate. if you carry under the authority of your CHL and you INTENTIONALLY FAIL TO CONCEAL you can be charged with violation of 46.035.
ie. carrying OWB, with concealing second shirt, and taking your cover second shirt off in Wal-Mart Men’s shirt department to try on a different Hawaiian print
However if I’m in a location where the possession of a handgun is not otherwise forbidden for a person without a CHL, and I bring a hand gun out for display, I doubt you would be charged with 46.035, in such a situation it would not be against the law.

If I incite a panic, disturb the peace, or such, then there are other laws to deal with,, Understood.
So my handgun, in my holster, in a building where the gun itself is not forbidden, by Federal, state law or employers rules.. There are no laws that forbid it’s possession.. and that gun comes out of my holster, it is now viewable, and as legal as if Joe the plumber with no CHL had taken it from HIS backpack. I fail to see how this event would run afoul of 46.035?
Of course discharging that weapon is a another issues ..

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

I can't find it, I agree with you, if you want to show your buddy your new gun take him to the range. I think this guy is lucky he didn't end up in serious trouble.

Just for a curve ball.

Carry under the statues for concealed carry there is a section that covers failing to conceal. Got it no debate. if you carry under the authority of your CHL and you INTENTIONALLY FAIL TO CONCEAL you can be charged with violation of 46.035.
ie. carrying OWB, with concealing second shirt, and taking your cover second shirt off in Wal-Mart Men’s shirt department to try on a different Hawaiian print
However if I’m in a location where the possession of a handgun is not otherwise forbidden for a person without a CHL, and I bring a hand gun out for display, I doubt you would be charged with 46.035, in such a situation it would not be against the law.

If I incite a panic, disturb the peace, or such, then there are other laws to deal with,, Understood.
So my handgun, in my holster, in a building where the gun itself is not forbidden, by Federal, state law or employers rules.. There are no laws that forbid it’s possession.. and that gun comes out of my holster, it is now viewable, and as legal as if Joe the plumber with no CHL had taken it from HIS backpack. I fail to see how this event would run afoul of 46.035?
Of course discharging that weapon is a another issues ..

In your first scenario if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL you cannot intentionally fail to conceal your gun unless it is in self-defense regardless if guns are not forbidden there save ranges , gun show and the like.

In your second scenario simply by carrying the gun on or about your person without a CHL or being a LEO you violate 46.02 if you are not on your property or property under your control regardless is guns are not prohibited.

***46.02 prohibits people from carrying guns on or about their person unless it is on their property or property they control. So unless you are a LEO or other special people listed in 46.02 you cannot carry a gun on or about your person unless you have a CHL or are in your vehicle.

[The Annoyed Man]

With all due respect, you are completely misunderstanding this issue from the standpoint of Texas law.

On this board, when you see someone say "concealed is concealed," that means nothing more or less than if you keep your gun concealed (and your mouth shut), nobody will know about your gun—regardless of the circumstances in question. We do not have a law against printing in Texas. Literally. There is no law against printing. What we DO have is a law against INTENTIONAL failure to conceal. When you open carry, that is "intentional failure to conceal." When you draw your weapon to show it off to friends, that is "intentional failure to conceal." When you draw your weapon in self defense, that is a defense to prosecution for intentionally failing to conceal your weapon. When you're showing off to your friends, you don't have that defense to prosecution.

When you are "printing," there is no way in most cases that the observer can know what the object is that is printing under that shirt. It has to rise to the level of being readily discernible (like, able to read the logo on the slide through the fabric) as a firearm. So if you wore your full sized 5" 1911 underneath a skin-tight UnderArmor shirt, such that the casual observer could tell if it was a Springfield and not a Kimber, that would probably rise to the level of intentional failure to conceal.

However, if the wind blows your shirt up, momentarily exposing your firearm for anyone to see, and you immediately make attempts to cover it up, that is NOT intentional failure to conceal.

So, in the case of the person who negligently fired the pistol, the pistol's owner was definitely guilty of intentional failure to conceal, as the events did not occur in the privacy of his own home.

Believe me, most of us are not worried about printing. In fact, concerns about printing are commonly raised by n00bs who are brand new to carrying, and the most common advice they get is, "strap it on, cover it up, and forget about it." Most respondents will tell the concerned individual there is no way for a casual observer to know whether the object under the shirt is a pistol, an insulin pump, a cellphone, or a colostomy bag. So, you have VERY much misread the tone of this board in that regard.

I am glad you are not so worried about it. I do however think that a class A misdemeanor and loss of a CHL because you show your friend your gun is pretty insane. I have checked and it is not even a crime in my state at all as long as you are not pointing it at anyone or threatening anyone with it. Yall have a great castle doctrine but some of your gun laws leave much to be desired. And with that I am done with this thread. Have a nice day yall.

I can only respond with this: Ours is not an open carry state. Yours is. That is the only difference here. If your state did not have open carry, then drawing your weapon in a public place (and for practical application of the law, your workplace is a public place) for purposes other than self defense would constitute intentional failure to conceal.

You keep saying "your state's gun laws" (meaning Texas's gun laws) leave much to be desired, but you really aren't specific about which laws you mean. We have several. If you did your research and could point out specifically which one, we could have a serious discussion about it. One cannot really respond to that, except to point out, as I have done, that the real difference seems to be open versus concealed carry.

Even so, I am willing to bet that if you drew your openly carried weapon in a public place to show to your friend, in your state, and it was witnessed by a nearby police officer, you would almost certainly get more attention than you desired..........open carry or not. I'd be willing to bet you real greenbacks on that. So, I can only respond that "some of your gun laws leave much to be desired. And with that I am done with this thread. Have a nice day yall."

[E.Marquez]

In your first scenario if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL you cannot intentionally fail to conceal your gun unless it is in self-defense regardless if guns are not forbidden there save ranges , gun show and the like.

In your second scenario simply by carrying the gun on or about your person without a CHL or being a LEO you violate 46.02 if you are not on your property or property under your control regardless is guns are not prohibited.

***46.02 prohibits people from carrying guns on or about their person unless it is on their property or property they control. So unless you are a LEO or other special people listed in 46.02 you cannot carry a gun on or about your person unless you have a CHL or are in your vehicle.

But see you jumped right passed what I set as conditions for the question..
“I’m in a location where the possession of a handgun is not otherwise forbidden for a person without a CHL, and I bring a hand gun out for display, I doubt you would be charged with 46.035, in such a situation it would not be against the law.“
Under MPA, I depart my house with my loaded fire arm, I got to my vehicle.. my best buddy stops by at the car, and asks to see that pistol I was wanting to sell.. Happens to be the one I’m carrying.. I remove it from my holster, unload, clear, and hand it to him. The pistol is unloaded, and now not a legal issue to have out in the open. And unless some knows a trick I don’t,, in order to get that pistol from concealed and loaded to unconcealed and unloaded where it’s status changes to allowable out in the open in the hands guy who would not be covered under MPA… it has to come out of the holster.
You can run the same scenario with going from your car to the work place or other building you are allowed to go to under MPA..
Or
Under MPA, the gun is in your car ANYWHERE in TX, and someone wants to see that new pistol you have… to get it into that other persons handle, it’s going to have to be unconcealed, unloaded, cleared.. and now it’s just an empty pistol that the “other” person can handle.
We can discuss all day that it would be better to bring that person into the house, seated in the car, or many other possibilities… but that is aside from what I’m asking / stating.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

In your first scenario if you are carrying under the authority of your CHL you cannot intentionally fail to conceal your gun unless it is in self-defense regardless if guns are not forbidden there save ranges , gun show and the like.

In your second scenario simply by carrying the gun on or about your person without a CHL or being a LEO you violate 46.02 if you are not on your property or property under your control regardless is guns are not prohibited.

***46.02 prohibits people from carrying guns on or about their person unless it is on their property or property they control. So unless you are a LEO or other special people listed in 46.02 you cannot carry a gun on or about your person unless you have a CHL or are in your vehicle.

But see you jumped right passed what I set as conditions for the question..
“I’m in a location where the possession of a handgun is not otherwise forbidden for a person without a CHL, and I bring a hand gun out for display, I doubt you would be charged with 46.035, in such a situation it would not be against the law.“
Under MPA, I depart my house with my loaded fire arm, I got to my vehicle.. my best buddy stops by at the car, and asks to see that pistol I was wanting to sell.. Happens to be the one I’m carrying.. I remove it from my holster, unload, clear, and hand it to him. The pistol is unloaded, and now not a legal issue to have out in the open. And unless some knows a trick I don’t,, in order to get that pistol from concealed and loaded to unconcealed and unloaded where it’s status changes to allowable out in the open in the hands guy who would not be covered under MPA… it has to come out of the holster.
You can run the same scenario with going from your car to the work place or other building you are allowed to go to under MPA..
Or
Under MPA, the gun is in your car ANYWHERE in TX, and someone wants to see that new pistol you have… to get it into that other persons handle, it’s going to have to be unconcealed, unloaded, cleared.. and now it’s just an empty pistol that the “other” person can handle.
We can discuss all day that it would be better to bring that person into the house, seated in the car, or many other possibilities… but that is aside from what I’m asking / stating.

According to the MPA the gun must not be in plain view while in the vehicle. So, if you get it out to show someone you violate the MPA (46.02). Also, the text of the MPA only states that you can carry it in or en route to a motor vehicle. It doesn't say that you can carry from vehicle to another location. I read this to mean that if you carry under the MPA the gun must remain concealed and must remain in your vehicle unless you are on your property or property under your control.

[E.Marquez]

According to the MPA the gun must not be in plain view while in the vehicle. So, if you get it out to show someone you violate the MPA (46.02). Also, the text of the MPA only states that you can carry it in or en route to a motor vehicle. It doesn't say that you can carry from vehicle to another location. I read this to mean that if you carry under the MPA the gun must remain concealed and must remain in your vehicle unless you are on your property or property under your control.

Yes I agree with your position.
So it's loaded, in my car, concealed as it must be, because it's loaded.
If I unload it, meaning it has to be unconcealed.... and now can legally show it, hand it off to a person legally able to posses a hand gun. By the letter of the law it would appear to be a violation.....because for an instant it took to drop the mag, lock the side back, clear the mag well, and chamber... it was , not concealed. If that action is to be prosecuted, as some would imply, I think I and many others have been chancing our freedom many years over.

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

Yes I agree with your position.
So it's loaded, in my car, concealed as it must be, because it's loaded.
If I unload it, meaning it has to be unconcealed.... and now can legally show it, hand it off to a person legally able to posses a hand gun. By the letter of the law it would appear to be a violation.....because for an instant it took to drop the mag, lock the side back, clear the mag well, and chamber... it was , not concealed. If that action is to be prosecuted, as some would imply, I think I and many others have been chancing our freedom many years over.

I see what you are saying but the MPA (46.02) does not differentiate between loaded and unloaded. It simply says handgun. So, even if it is unloaded it still must remain concealed.

[E.Marquez]

Yes I agree with your position.
So it's loaded, in my car, concealed as it must be, because it's loaded.
If I unload it, meaning it has to be unconcealed.... and now can legally show it, hand it off to a person legally able to posses a hand gun. By the letter of the law it would appear to be a violation.....because for an instant it took to drop the mag, lock the side back, clear the mag well, and chamber... it was , not concealed. If that action is to be prosecuted, as some would imply, I think I and many others have been chancing our freedom many years over.

I see what you are saying but the MPA (46.02) does not differentiate between loaded and unloaded. It simply says handgun. So, even if it is unloaded it still must remain concealed.

That makes no sense, there is no law that forbids a hand gun in general from being visible in public that I know of.. Is there????

. If so, there would have to be hundreds of exceptions for where we see hand guns openly displayed every day..

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.

I see no part at this point in the law to have the hand gun concealed