The Annoyed Man wrote:How did you legally get onto the base with your CHL? I thought most military bases are off-limits to CHL.
I'm pretty sure you can have a CHL and be on a military base. You just can't actually carry.
No sir, ,not correct, Fast way to see cuffs on you and a long day ahead
So you are saying that you can be arrested on a military base because you have a LICENSE? Don't think so.
No sir, not what I said or implied, just that displaying a CHL would cause you extra scrutiny, somewhere between delay and search to Handcuffs, much more delay, and search to a higher degree.
If my comments were taken otherwise, my apologies for the confusion.
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The Annoyed Man wrote:How did you legally get onto the base with your CHL? I thought most military bases are off-limits to CHL.
I'm pretty sure you can have a CHL and be on a military base. You just can't actually carry.
No sir, ,not correct, Fast way to see cuffs on you and a long day ahead
May I point out that you are incorrect? A CHL is a Concealed Handgun License. There is no law or regulation about having a license on base, so long as you don't also have a firearm.
That was the point.
And my point was, , is. Still;
displaying a CHL (Concealed Hand Gun license) at a traffic stop on Fort Hood will be cause in most cases for delay, search, and depending on attitude and what else they find or don’t find, hand cuffs.
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papajohn1964 wrote:What if you are pulled over by an MP while on a base, unarmed of course, should you show your CHL along with your DL?
I work on Post here at Fort Hood with the DES. If I were you, I wouldn't show your Concealed Carry License with your Drivers License, I am assuming you are unarmed. It would sure inflame the situation as it is illegal to conceal carry, reference AR 190-11, 4-5a(2), or have ready access to a privately owned weapon/ammunition on a Federal Installation. The MP would probably, read gaurantee, detain you, call his/her supervisor, wait for their arrival, you and your vehicle would be searched and due to the holding and searching of both you and your vehicle, you would be blottered. Not good if you intend to come on the installation later on. Cannot conceal carry, at least legally...
Succinct and accurate
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I just noticed my error in attributing Bronco78's quote to you. Sorry about that.
I did, however, correctly interpret Bronco78's intent that displaying a CHL could get one some extra attention, not necessarily arrested.
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The Annoyed Man wrote:How did you legally get onto the base with your CHL? I thought most military bases are off-limits to CHL.
I'm pretty sure you can have a CHL and be on a military base. You just can't actually carry.
No sir, ,not correct, Fast way to see cuffs on you and a long day ahead
May I point out that you are incorrect? A CHL is a Concealed Handgun License. There is no law or regulation about having a license on base, so long as you don't also have a firearm.
That was the point.
And my point was, , is. Still;
displaying a CHL (Concealed Hand Gun license) at a traffic stop on Fort Hood will be cause in most cases for delay, search, and depending on attitude and what else they find or don’t find, hand cuffs.
I completely agree that displaying the license on base is a very bad idea, but if you will read the quoted text above, you will note that no one mentioned displaying it. Apparently you assumed that is what everyone else was saying, but you didn't share that assumption with the rest of us. Your statement implied that merely having the license on base would cause problems.
BTW, I'm retired Air Force and RottenApple (my son) grew up on AF bases. We knew what we were talking about, but you were talking about something else and didn't let us know.
It's all square now.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams
OK,we have a real answer that i thought would be obvious. If you are stopped by anyone who is not a peace officer as defined in Texas Code of Criminal Procedure section 2.12, whether you are carrying or not, or by a Texas peace officer when you are not armed, you are not legally required to produce your CHL. You are not even required to produce it when they specifically ask you about it because you are not required to have it in your possession.
But for an opposing point of view, what is the advice we give about being unarmed and letting the Texas peace officer know anyway? Why would you change that attitude? The MP, or the federal agent off base, is going to run you through the exact same database that the peace officer will, with the exact same results. If the peace officer is going to want to know more, why would the other LEO not act the same way? I would recommend letting the MP know you have a CHL but are not armed. The rules for detaining you, cuffing you, and searching your car are only very slightly modified when you are on base if you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ. The 4th Amendment still applies. There is the question of the implied consent sign when you come on base and it is my understanding that the court rulings on this are sort of mixed. I have not kept up with them since 2001 so I could be wrong on this, but that was my understanding the last time I worked near a base.
My recommendation would be to treat the MP, FBI agent, US Marshal, or Border Patrol Agent as exactly the same as you would a peace officer.
But do not forget that you are not allowed to haev the gun on base in most cases, even in the trunk. That part is still way different from the rest of Texas.
srothstein wrote:OK,we have a real answer that i thought would be obvious. If you are stopped by anyone who is not a peace officer as defined in Texas Code of Criminal Procedure section 2.12, whether you are carrying or not, or by a Texas peace officer when you are not armed, you are not legally required to produce your CHL. You are not even required to produce it when they specifically ask you about it because you are not required to have it in your possession.
But for an opposing point of view, what is the advice we give about being unarmed and letting the Texas peace officer know anyway? Why would you change that attitude? The MP, or the federal agent off base, is going to run you through the exact same database that the peace officer will, with the exact same results. If the peace officer is going to want to know more, why would the other LEO not act the same way? I would recommend letting the MP know you have a CHL but are not armed. The rules for detaining you, cuffing you, and searching your car are only very slightly modified when you are on base if you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ. The 4th Amendment still applies. There is the question of the implied consent sign when you come on base and it is my understanding that the court rulings on this are sort of mixed. I have not kept up with them since 2001 so I could be wrong on this, but that was my understanding the last time I worked near a base.
My recommendation would be to treat the MP, FBI agent, US Marshal, or Border Patrol Agent as exactly the same as you would a peace officer.
But do not forget that you are not allowed to haev the gun on base in most cases, even in the trunk. That part is still way different from the rest of Texas.
I don't think the MP or Federal Agent has access to TCIC, do they? I thought that was limited to Texas peace officers.
When you're on a military installation, the best advice is, "Don't poke the bear with a stick." Telling the MP or USAF SP you have a CHL will make them suspicious that you are carrying and cause a hassle for you.
Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence. - John Adams
My recommendation would be to treat the MP, FBI agent, US Marshal, or Border Patrol Agent as exactly the same as you would a peace officer.
...<snip>...
For the purpose of this particular question about military bases, I respectfully disagree. The right to carry in Texas is granted by the State of Texas, not by the federal government. You may choose to reveal your CHL status to a federal officer, but are not required to by any Texas law of which I am aware. If you know of one or of any federal law which states that a Texas CHL holder must reveal their status to a federal officer, please feel free to correct me and link to it so that all may learn.
If you have official contact with any of the federal officers you listed, they will be intent on their business. Volunteering any out of the ordinary unnecessary information will perk their interest in you and turn an ordinary function into something you probably will not like, at least a lengthened delay. Don't lie to them, but don't volunteer extra information not required.
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srothstein wrote:OK,we have a real answer that i thought would be obvious. If you are stopped by anyone who is not a peace officer as defined in Texas Code of Criminal Procedure section 2.12, whether you are carrying or not, or by a Texas peace officer when you are not armed, you are not legally required to produce your CHL. You are not even required to produce it when they specifically ask you about it because you are not required to have it in your possession.
But for an opposing point of view, what is the advice we give about being unarmed and letting the Texas peace officer know anyway? Why would you change that attitude? The MP, or the federal agent off base, is going to run you through the exact same database that the peace officer will, with the exact same results. If the peace officer is going to want to know more, why would the other LEO not act the same way? I would recommend letting the MP know you have a CHL but are not armed. The rules for detaining you, cuffing you, and searching your car are only very slightly modified when you are on base if you are not in the military and subject to the UCMJ. The 4th Amendment still applies. There is the question of the implied consent sign when you come on base and it is my understanding that the court rulings on this are sort of mixed. I have not kept up with them since 2001 so I could be wrong on this, but that was my understanding the last time I worked near a base.
My recommendation would be to treat the MP, FBI agent, US Marshal, or Border Patrol Agent as exactly the same as you would a peace officer.
But do not forget that you are not allowed to haev the gun on base in most cases, even in the trunk. That part is still way different from the rest of Texas.
Do fed queries include TCIC by default?
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Things have changed since I was in the service ('59-‘65). I served with a Marine guard company on a Naval Ammunition Depot in McAlester, OK. A friend and I had purchased some Hi-Standard Double Action .22 revolvers while station there. We had to check our personal weapons into the armory when on base but could check them out when we were leaving the base. We had permission from a couple of the civilian employee's on the base to use their property for target shooting if we shot all the snakes we came across around the stock ponds. On request we could be issued two (2) boxes of .22 ammo each twice a month from the base armory.
I know of no federal law requiring it and agree that it is not required. It is my recommendation anyway, just as we all recommend it for a Texas peace officer even if you are not carrying. I generally agree about not volunteering any information, but in cases where it will be discovered anyway, I change that opinion slightly.
Gigag and PawPaw:
To the best of my knowledge, the feds get all of the information they want. I may be wrong, but I believe that the MPs go through TCIC for their connection because the FBI does not maintain a direct NCIC only network for the feds. I think they rely on state centers for all transmissions, but have to admit I am not 100% positive of that.
We just came back from NAS Key West on vacation, they have a policy posted to check weapons with security when coming onto the annex or you'll be fined and lose the weapon...if discovered of course. Given it is a Federal property (US Navy) I find it a rather accommodating policy.
I Thess 5:21
Disclaimer: IANAL, IANYL, IDNPOOTV, IDNSIAHIE and IANROFL
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surprise_i'm_armed wrote:If you locked your gun and all ammo in the trunk, while on a federal facility, I'm assuming
that this would still not be good enough to avoid arrest. Comments?
SIA
Each installation has separate rules concerning weapons being brought on post/base. As general rule of thumb you cannot normally have a weapon at a military installation. I know that recently at Ft. Hood you could inform the (civilian) security force at the gate that you have a locked up and unloaded firearm if you are only going from one gate to the Gatesville gate or vice-versa--cutting through. This only pertained to those that had installation decals. Do not know if that policy is still in place. When I was a member of the Sportsman Club, you had to go to the Provost Marshal's Office with the S/N, make, and model of each weapon to get a document to bring it back to the PMO for inspection. Once this was complete they issued you another document that allowed you to take the weapon directly to the Sportsman Club and directly off post. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. You still had to declare and most times have the weapon inspected at the gate. Again, you could only go directly to the Sportsman Club and then directly off post. Some days it seemed like I spent more time unloading, locking up, getting inspected, and doing the reverse to leave, than I did shooting. I no longer go to the Sportsman Club.
When I pick my grandkids up, their mother meets me at the gate so I do not have to disarm. Since the terrorist attack at Ft. Hood I refuse to be unarmed if at all possible.
+1 to you Sir. Installations could, at one time, have less restrictive policies. Fort Hood prior to November 9, 2009, had very liberal policies for about two years. Now we have returned to full registration, transport only with permission and etc. Also, now with the new AR 190-11 the installations must meet those minimum standards which are: You cannot at any time carry a privately owned weapon, except those folding knives with blades shorter than 3 inches, unless authorized by the Senior Commander. And, only for those activites such as hunting, dog training activities, or marksmanship events. All firearms will be registered prior to bringing on post, registration must remain with the vehicle and in view while transporting, can only transport in the trunk of the vehicle or in another area that is not accessible to the driver or passengers. Can only transport in a direct route to and from. Commercially available trigger locks and other security devices are also recommended. (This will mean the Senior Commander will do more than recommend). Registration is not difficult, go to the VCC with the S/N, make/model of the weapon, don't bring the weapon, fill out the FH Form 190-19, give it back and the weapon is registered. Really just returned to the days before 2007, except that there is not really any grace period and if you are a soldier, commanders have to insure the weapons are stored safely in your on-post quarters. If someone would like an indepth PM me and I can give you a POC that can assist you concerning gate entry, hunting requirements and etc.
Stupid question.
Would these regulations prevent another Ft. Hood type shooting?
Just asking.
God Bless America, and please hurry. When I was young I knew all the answers. When I got older I started to realize I just hadn’t quite understood the questions.-Me
