Plano School District has 30.06 posted parking lots

[Fedaykin]

I have called every level of authority I can think of about this starting with my CHL Instructor. Everyone I've talked to, including Sherrifs, Police Officers, Austin Admin etc. (I even called the Texas Rangers) they all give me the exact same answer.

They don't know.

I even had the local police tell me "If it's concealed, who's gonna know?". I said well what happens if you get into a fender bender in the parking lot and the police show up. Now you're a felon! He said "yeah... that wouldn't be good".

Question 1: Can a public school (which I believe is a government entity) post the parking lot with a 30.06 sign? Well... they already have, but is it legal for them to do so? This effectively prevents a carrying CHL holder from entering the car pool line.

Question 2: The Texas Penal code defines 'premises' as a building or part of a building and even goes on to specifically state that it DOES NOT include a parking lot, public or private drive etc. So how does Grape Vine mills or any other business pull off posting 30.06 in their parking lot?

Question 3: Where is the current Texas Penal code? Every copy I find says you can't carry in a church and I see all of you are carrying in a church.

I am perplexed at the level of non-knowingness I have experience on these three issues. I humbly await a proper education.

[McKnife]

It can't be enforced because, as you said, it's a government- owned building. Posting the sign is simply a waste of tax dollars.

For a private business, I believe the sign is valid. However, in that case, you can carry a handgun in your vehicle under the authority of the motorist protection act instead of your CHL.

The texas dps website always has a current copy of chl laws in pdf format available for download. Read where it says churches are off limits, then go down to the end of that section and notice the 30.06 exception.

Hope this helps.

[MasterOfNone]

Responses in red below:

I have called every level of authority I can think of about this starting with my CHL Instructor. Everyone I've talked to, including Sherrifs, Police Officers, Austin Admin etc. (I even called the Texas Rangers) they all give me the exact same answer.

They don't know.

I even had the local police tell me "If it's concealed, who's gonna know?". I said well what happens if you get into a fender bender in the parking lot and the police show up. Now you're a felon! He said "yeah... that wouldn't be good".

Question 1: Can a public school (which I believe is a government entity) post the parking lot with a 30.06 sign? Well... they already have, but is it legal for them to do so? This effectively prevents a carrying CHL holder from entering the car pool line.

30.06 does not apply to property owned or leased by the government. So if the school is on government property, it does not apply and you may carry outside the buildings.

Question 2: The Texas Penal code defines 'premises' as a building or part of a building and even goes on to specifically state that it DOES NOT include a parking lot, public or private drive etc. So how does Grape Vine mills or any other business pull off posting 30.06 in their parking lot?

That definition of "premises" only applies to 46.03 and 46.035. In general, private property owners can prohibit you from any part of their property.

Question 3: Where is the current Texas Penal code? Every copy I find says you can't carry in a church and I see all of you are carrying in a church.

Churches are off-limits only if 30.06 notice is provided.

I am perplexed at the level of non-knowingness I have experience on these two issues. I humbly await a proper education.

[Fedaykin]

Churches are off-limits only if 30.06 notice is provided.

Thank you for your response! However, the current Texas Penal Code states that a Church is a prohibited place to carry. Just went to the Texas website and read it.

[Fedaykin]

It can't be enforced because, as you said, it's a government- owned building. Posting the sign is simply a waste of tax dollars.

For a private business, I believe the sign is valid. However, in that case, you can carry a handgun in your vehicle under the authority of the motorist protection act instead of your CHL.

The texas dps website always has a current copy of chl laws in pdf format available for download. Read where it says churches are off limits, then go down to the end of that section and notice the 30.06 exception.

Hope this helps.

I see what you're saying but the problem I have with the DPS pdf is that its in conflict with the current Texas Penal Code. The Texas Penal Code will be what follows you to court, not the DPS webpage.

[rtschl]

Fedaykin,

You need to read the statute in it's entirety. Notice subsection i of 46.035:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So Church, hosptials, amusement parks have to post a valid 30.06 notice to stop CHL from carrying.

Ron

[CC Italian]

Sorry but you need to read it again. There is a little part where it says something about how it does not apply unless posted 30.06 at a church. I thought the same thing when I got my CHL back in 07 and members on this board set me straight. Go back and re-read its there!

[i8godzilla]

Keep reading......................

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor
was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

[MasterOfNone]

Fedaykin,

You need to read the statute in it's entirety. Notice subsection i of 46.035:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So Church, hosptials, amusement parks have to post a valid 30.06 notice to stop CHL from carrying.

Ron

What he said.

[Fedaykin]

Fedaykin,

You need to read the statute in it's entirety. Notice subsection i of 46.035:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So Church, hosptials, amusement parks have to post a valid 30.06 notice to stop CHL from carrying.

Ron

Yes!! Thank you! Sorry, I kept getting stuck on the stupid verbiage in the statute and forgot about the thing at the end. I remember them explaining this in the class how instead of changing the text of the law they just write more text at the bottom to change the meaning.

Okay Amusement parks, churches. I'm convinced. ...Please keep the Fedaykin bashing to minimum. I've been set straight.

However, I'm not convinced about the school. Mr. Plano cop on the phone consulted with the School district cop standing next to him and said they way the city of Plano interprets the law is that the School grounds are only semi-government (whatever that means) and just like they can kick you off the ground for criminal trespass if you're causing a ruckus, they can post their parking lots and keep CHL's out.

[MasterOfNone]

Fedaykin,

You need to read the statute in it's entirety. Notice subsection i of 46.035:

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply
if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

So Church, hosptials, amusement parks have to post a valid 30.06 notice to stop CHL from carrying.

Ron

Yes!! Thank you! Sorry, I kept getting stuck on the stupid verbiage in the statute and forgot about the thing at the end. I remember them explaining this in the class how instead of changing the text of the law they just write more text at the bottom to change the meaning.

Okay Amusement parks, churches. I'm convinced. ...Please keep the Fedaykin bashing to minimum. I've been set straight.

However, I'm not convinced about the school. Mr. Plano cop on the phone consulted with the School district cop standing next to him and said they way the city of Plano interprets the law is that the School grounds are only semi-government (whatever that means) and just like they can kick you off the ground for criminal trespass if you're causing a ruckus, they can post their parking lots and keep CHL's out.

The property is either government-owned or it is not. If you have a chance, check out the county's website and see who is on the deed.
And 30.05 (criminal trespass) does not have the government property exception.

[CC Italian]

Don't worry nobody is going to bash you. It is a problem that many new CHL holders had 2-7 years ago. Many of us on the board have just been trying not to let the inaccurate info spread about church carry. That is why you got so many responses so quick. Even my CHL instructor told me I couldn't carry in a church in 07. Heck, its the reason I joined the forum back in 2008. The wealth of info on this board is amazing!

[Fedaykin]

The property is either government-owned or it is not. If you have a chance, check out the county's website and see who is on the deed.
And 30.05 (criminal trespass) does not have the government property exception.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the Plano Police department disagrees with both of us.

Plano has a 30.06 sign strategically posted at the entrance of every parking lot of every school. I think this is one of those thing you might be able to spend a lot of money to beat in court, but you're not gonna beat the ride.

[srothstein]

However, I'm not convinced about the school. Mr. Plano cop on the phone consulted with the School district cop standing next to him and said they way the city of Plano interprets the law is that the School grounds are only semi-government (whatever that means) and just like they can kick you off the ground for criminal trespass if you're causing a ruckus, they can post their parking lots and keep CHL's out.

Here you have a great example of two distinct problems. One problem is that you should not ask cops the law. As a general rule, if they do not pull out the Penal Code and read it, they are saying what they think instead of what it actually reads. Some sections any cop should be able to quote. If they don't know what a theft, burglary, or robbery is, then they are incompetent (which does not mean you won't meet them). But they probably don't know the sections on things they do not deal with every day - like weapons. They know the general principles but not the actual law.

And I will admit I might be partially responsible for this condition. I was trained, and trained a lot of other cops, to carry our books with us. When I tested officers, I expected them to know some areas well, but most of the code I expected them to just be able to find and read the right section. Of course, I concerned myself more with weapons because of my personal interest, but I know one training officer who concerned himself more with the gambling and prostitution sections - he worked Vice for years. So, you asked the wrong people.

As for the second problem, you now have an idea what is meant by beating the rap but not the ride. The local police will consider that 30.06 valid and will arrest you. I am sure that any decent lawyer would get the case thrown out of court, if the D.A. took it that far. But for a day to day purpose, the cop's interpretation is what you really need to concern yourself with. It is what determines if you spend a night in the county jail.

In case I missed it, here is the official state website for all of the laws in Texas: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When you read the law, you will find that it is not illegal for the school district to post their property. It is just not an enforceable sign. A Texan with a CHL from Texas can drive into any school parking lot in Texas with a weapon in the car and would not be breaking any laws. It is clear that the 30.06 law does not apply to schools (there is no such thing as semi-government in any law I am familiar with). The CHL means 46.02 and the Federal Gun Free School Zone Act do not apply. The parking lot is not part of the premises so 46.03 does not apply. Loading school buses is not a sport, so 46.035 does not apply. Therfore, you are legal to do so, with the previously noted proviso that the local police may disagree with me and arrest you anyway.

[G.A. Heath]

Question 1: Can a public school (which I believe is a government entity) post the parking lot with a 30.06 sign? Well... they already have, but is it legal for them to do so? This effectively prevents a carrying CHL holder from entering the car pool line.

Question 2: The Texas Penal code defines 'premises' as a building or part of a building and even goes on to specifically state that it DOES NOT include a parking lot, public or private drive etc. So how does Grape Vine mills or any other business pull off posting 30.06 in their parking lot?

Question 3: Where is the current Texas Penal code? Every copy I find says you can't carry in a church and I see all of you are carrying in a church.

First off its generally a bad idea to ask a LEO for legal advice since their job is putting people in jail not keeping them out. Additionally its generally a bad idea to ask Internet forums for legal advice, however this is one of the better forums to ask as it is owned by an attorney. But moving onto the questions (Which, for the most part, have already been answered above):

Answer 1: Yes, they can legally post just about any anti-gun sign they want without any penalties. However the sign is meaningless per TPC 30.06(e) seeing as a public school is considered a government entity (the school board is elected by the public and they do impose taxes).

Answer 2: 30.06 does not refer to premises in any manner, so premises has no meaning for TPC 30.06.

Question 3: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; <-- that's the states own website and that will (probably) be the most accurate source you will find online for the penal code, the rest of the question has been addressed very well.