carry in a hospital?

[Lonegun1894]

I know this has been chewed over but been told of recent changes/revisions and just want to make sure i have this right. I work in a hospital. Some entrances are posted, others are not. Even the posted ones do not have the .30-06 but instead read "state law prohibits carrying of a handgun on these premises". Ok, so the sign is wrong. So the posting is not valid. Seeing as verbal notice is another valid form of telling us not to carry, here's my concern. During orientation they made a quick comment that was a quick list, and i mean quick, of things not to carry at work. Their words were, "no smoking inside the building, no cellphones, no guns, etc." at no time mentioning CHLs in any capacity. Am i wrong in thinking that even though they said "no guns", seeing as they didnt mention anything regarding having a CHL or not, that it has the same weight as a "no guns" sign at any other location/business? Policy handbook says "no weapons on hospital premises." and leaves it at that. Once again making no mention of a CHL. We have had robberies in the parkinglot, several UCW arrests of beligerent visitors (all non-CHL), and one shooting where a person got into a verbal confrontation with an employee and then proceeded to walk into a bathroom and kill himself(also non-CHL). This has all been in the 3 months i have worked there and this hospital does use LEOs from several local departments as security. Never been one to depend on others to protect me so wont start now. I have been carrying a knife, which i know is both legal and not against hospital policy, but want to get my ducks in a row so i dont end up in jail over carrying a gun when i think it is legal and it isnt, or at least a gray area i can defend if need be. I know the verbal notice is, at least to me, questionable. And i understand that i will be looking for a job if i get caught carrying even if the law says i can. But i'd much rather go home and tell her that i need another job, than have her get a call that i wont be coming home that night, or ever again for that matter. Any and all advice is appreciated. Thanks y'all.
Paul

[TxFire]

Here is my understanding and I'm sure I'll be corrected by the experts if I'm incorrect.

The door signage is not valid, hence no effect on a CHL.

The written "no weapons on hospital premises." in the handbook is also not a valid witten notice per 30.06 so it will not prevent you from carrying, BUT it will put you in vioaltion of company policy which will likely result in termination.

The verbal "no smoking inside the building, no cellphones, no guns, etc." I believe is effective 30.06 verbal notification and does make it illegal for you to carry on the premisis via a CHL.

So I would say NO you should not carry at work unless termination and prosecution is a better option than not carrying.

Just my .02 worth.

[barres]

Much as I hate to say it, . There are no guidelines for what constitutes verbal notice. Therefore, if they say you can't bring a gun, then that's effective verbal notice, even if they don't say anything about licensed carry. Some would also mention this, though: can they prove you heard them?

[Lonegun1894]

seeing as they didnt have set breaks and we were allowed to go to the bathrooms at will, i doubt they can prove i heard much of anything. Great point.

[Venus Pax]

What kinds of shifts are you working?
Also, is it a Catholic hospital. In the Beaumont/Port Arthur area, the two major hospitals are Catholic hospitals, and the nuns aren't into guns. They are even 30.06 posted.
I would recommend leaving it in the vehicle and getting security (or one really husky nurse) to walk you out after dark.

[Replaced Texan]

The law says a hospital must display the 30.06 sign to prohibit lawful concealed carry on hospital premises. If the hospital's employee handbook says no guns then they mean no guns. The two are NOT related. One is state law the other is employer regulations.

If a person (non employee) carrying concealed is caught carrying in the hospital a good argument could be made that the entrance was not properly posted. You know, like what IS the purpose of the law? The purpose of the law is to set a statewide standard of acceptable behavior.

However, an EMPLOYEE caught carrying in the hospital might win in court against any unlawful carry but I think the employer would can them in a heartbeat if for nothing else than to make an example of them. They might not do that and might only counsel the individual if they have a concealed carry permit but I wouldn't bet on it. They would be justified in firing them if 'no guns' is spelled out in the employee handbook. I recall something about an some oil company (?) firing personnel for having rifles in their pickups in the company parking lot. Texas law does allow the 30.06 posting of parking lots.

[Lonegun1894]

the lot isnt posted in any way, correct or otherwise. I work second shift, so get out around 930-1000pm. No offense, but as much as i appreciate the recommendation about getting someone to walk out with me, i am a 26yo male and one of the few vets working there, at least on my shift that i know of. I am not a small woman concerned about rape and such, I am just tired of the incidents we keep having that they sweep under the carpet and tell us are just a work hazard. I am not looking for trouble, and will avoid it if at all possible, but anyone who tries to use force will be met with force, as i believe most, if not all, of you would do. Security consists of a few offduty LEOs who are mostly MIA after about 8pm or so. Good guys, so nothing against them, but the hospital tells them to leave about that time. It is a catholic hospital, and they do have an issue with any weapons, including a small pocketknife they saw me use to sharpen a pencil, but no regs against knives and i told them so, which they confirmed and have since left me alone about. I like the job, but for the most part, information i keep finding says it is just company policy, and not the law that tells me not to carry, since none of the signs are legal. Also, keeping my loved ones safe and coming home to them at the end of a shift is much more important to me than my continued employment. I can have another job in a day or two, so the bosslady and kids wont suffer if i do lose this job. And the pay is less than a dollars difference per hour between them so not that big a concern. I just want to make sure that i will be free to find another job instead of spending time in court defending myself unnecessarily.

[ScottDLS]

I think the PC 30.06 rules for written notice are pretty clear. There must be a sign(s) meeting the EXACT standards set forth in the code, or EXACT printed language in a written document/card/employee manual given to you. If the language in the employee manual/written notice is not the same as specified, I think you would not have received sufficient notice to be prosecuted under 30.06.

The verbal definition of effective notice seems much less clear. "I once heard from somebody that management didn't like guns in here...". How long am I supposed to remember this? Was it clear that the person saying this had the authority (or apparent authority) to speak for the owners/management? Can/Will someone testify to the fact that you received verbal notice?

Tough call. I'd err on the side of not breaking the law (vague enough for you...).

[Replaced Texan]

It's not a tough call at all. He works for the hospital. If his employee manual has a passage that forbids employees having weapons at work then the issue of whether the 30.06 sign is correctly posted is moot. For him, the employee manual is the guiding document and has nothing to do with state law (if he wishes to keep his job).

[Kalrog]

For him, the employee manual is the guiding document and has nothing to do with state law (if he wishes to keep his job).

So he could LEGALLY carry, but could be fired for such. He could NOT be prosecuted for carrying though. Some of us have ignored certain passages in the employee handbook from time to time when the situation warranted. I carry whenever I legally can... And now I don't work at the company that forbade CHL while at work.

[Replaced Texan]

Yes, that is how I understand it. The hospital is apparently improperly posted for 30.06 according to the information presented at the beginning of this thread. That said, if a person were to carry there, be discovered to be carrying, and then informed that CHL is forbidden on the premises (a legitimate verbal warning irrespective of proper or improper signage), he would have to leave immediately and disarm in order to return. If he REFUSES to leave (while still carrying) he can be arrested for criminal trespass. As far as the hospital employee is concerned, the employer-employee relationship is quite clear. The employee does as the employer requires or it's hasta la bye bye! Make sense?

[Kalrog]

Oh, it makes sense and I agree with everything you stated. I just know that some of us have been in that EXACT position with other employers and followed the letter of the law instead of being unreasonably bound by a stupid passage in the employee handbook.

[Lonegun1894]

Sounds clear as mud to me. All jokes aside though. I understand that i am putting my job on the line if i carry at work. I can live with that risk. Just wanted a secondary opinion about the legal aspects of this action. Just another reason for me to carry at work happened last night. I was asked to go into a room and work on a combative psych patient. Some genius decided to ask the 4 cops standing a few feet away--who brought in the patient--to go and help me control him if necessary. 3 of these did as asked and went in with me, good so far. Things got interesting and we ended up having to restrain the guy, but that is when i noticed something wrong on their duty belts. 2 of 3 had their holsters unsnapped, and before it was over, 1 of these had his gun on the floor instead of on him. It got knocked out during our little incident. Sounds like another reason to have one of my own. Would have been easy for anyone to grab it if they'd just reached down. Seems like there's a hairy situation up there just about every day, and most of us have been involved in one way or another in at least a couple.

[Lonegun1894]

just checked the handbook. Not even close to 30.06 compliant. And here i was thinking it might be a valid prohibition on carrying. Guess it is just my job on the line. But that beats my life being on the line.

[longtooth]

Lonegun, everyone has to make their own decision about carry on the job when they know the job is on the line. I know ERs at midnight on weekends in Lufkin are dangerous places to be. I have been there & watched domestic violence victims come in & shortly thereafter the assaulter come to take them home whether they wanted to go or not.
About a yr ago mid afternoon an estranged livein came to the hospital & was told to leave by security. He later killed the girlfriend & her son at a storage rental 4 blocks from our church. He was armed when he was at the hospital. I had been there about 30 minutes before.
Since I have been here for 21 yrs I can tell stories like these nonstop for several hrs about the 2 hospitals here.
I am armed when I go, & I for one agree w/ your decision. Keep it concealed & quiet. If you ever need it the job will seem very insignificant to your wife & family.
LT