Maryland State P.O.'s Misconduct Raises Important question

[jimlongley]

I think the unmarked officer overreacted and he knew it when the marked unit pulled up. When he saw the marked unit pull up, he turned sideways and hid his gun and then reholstered while watching the marked unit.

If you go over to YouTube and watch it in full screen at minute 3 +/- you will see he turns back after seeing something in the mirrors, and there is the marked car behind him. It appears to me that the unmarked passed the marked at the stop.

[C-dub]

The apparent increase in speed at one point is actually the exit. I've seen many exits striped like this. The short white stripes get smaller and closer together and this gave the illusion of greater speed. That's my 2 cents on that one little point.

If the biker had really thought this could be a bike-jacking and had suddenly taken off could the LEO have "legally" shot him? I understand there's a whole host of "if's" that go along with that question, but basically could he have shot the guy for just evasion and been justified?

[kalipsocs]

I never commented on whether of not this man broke the law, nor that a marked car was behind him, nor whether the stop was justified. I think this man personally was guilty as sin. But this doesn't change the fact that the P.O. who actually stopped him was not clearly identified by any outside makings, drew his gun, and approached the man on the motorcycle with behavior that would be alarming to someone who wasn't clearly identified as someone who had business approaching me with a drawn gun. Remember, the actual stop happened in seconds. We have all the time in the world to wax philosophical about the whole incident and watch/rewatch the video, but you need to have your mind like you are in that motorcyclist's shoes.

A man in a Malibu pulls in front of my bike (with no flashing lights or sirens), draws a weapon, walks at a hurried pace to my motorcycle telling me to turn the bike off and only VERBALLY identifying himself as a P.O. wayyyyy after commanding me to turn off the bike? When SD shootings happen in seconds as well, this is where my concern comes from making a grave error due to circumstance. Once again, there were no flashing lights that I saw, no badge in a obvious fashion, and potentially alarming behavior and circumstance....for all I know *at first thought under stress* this is a man with road rage who didn't like my driving and want to "teach me a thing or two" at the first exit I reach. I suppose this biker knew it was legitimate from putting two and two together between the man with drawn gun and the marked officer. I don't know much...all I do know is that I would be making an attempt to let any motorist know that I am a police officer and I need to stop you...flashing lights, badge clearly displayed somehow whether it be around your neck, on your shirt, or even with a gun in one hand and badge in another....anything to NOT make me think you are just a person I don't know approaching me with a firearm. I think I got my answer early on in regards to the original post, but thought it necessary to clarify some points in my thought process. Either way, its all just food for thought and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it I always appreciate the different points of view presented from this board

[Dragonfighter]

Is a verbal ID sufficient? I doubt I'd ever be in that situation but a man getting out of his car, drawing a weapon and yelling, "Get off the bike" is shaping up to be a jacking or robbery. He may very well of been in a standoff until the uniforms showed up or he produced an ID.

An afterthought: I have been approached by plain clothes before, guns drawn but ID showing in there weak hand. Not necessarily more pleasant but I am less inclined to engage with an ID showing.

[sjfcontrol]

Is a verbal ID sufficient? I doubt I'd ever be in that situation but a man getting out of his car, drawing a weapon and yelling, "Get off the bike" is shaping up to be a jacking or robbery. He may very well of been in a standoff until the uniforms showed up or he produced an ID.

An afterthought: I have been approached by plain clothes before, guns drawn but ID showing in there weak hand. Not necessarily more pleasant but I am less inclined to engage with an ID showing.

How are you supposed to know that he didn't buy the badge at a pawn shop?

[kalipsocs]

Is a verbal ID sufficient? I doubt I'd ever be in that situation but a man getting out of his car, drawing a weapon and yelling, "Get off the bike" is shaping up to be a jacking or robbery. He may very well of been in a standoff until the uniforms showed up or he produced an ID.

An afterthought: I have been approached by plain clothes before, guns drawn but ID showing in there weak hand. Not necessarily more pleasant but I am less inclined to engage with an ID showing.

Exactly...you get where i'm coming from

[PvilleStang]

Wow... pretty sure most if not all 1000cc crotch rockets do NOT come with center stands (at least I know CBR, GSX-R, and R1 models don't). Throw the center stand idea out the window.

And as for fleeing, clearly he wasn't, else he would have grabbed the right exit and lost him in seconds (a 1000cc sport bike would be gone before a cop could mash down the gas pedal). I don't ride much myself, but I know plenty of friends that do. Many will evade the police because many local LEO's have a no pursuit policy (and after last week, the Austin area police need to consider theirs, with two motorcycle fatalities in one morning after pursuits). This guy, although speeding and breaking the law, was not bobbing and weaving like most hot shots I know. He wasn't riding wheelies next to motorists. He was speeding by traffic, including busses and trucks (before you judge him, I'd recommend taking a spin on a sport bike, and try to ride next to a large vehicle like that, especially on a breezy or windy day). He pulled over for the officer, which as stated before, is much more than most of my sport-bike riding friends would do.

On the flip side, this could be the source for our pistol-wielding, macho-man's animosity towards motorcyclists. Personally, I think he should sue for false imprisionment, and anguish, and maybe tack on punitive damages on that officer. If he rolls over and lets his rights get thrown out the window, then he's setting precedence for the future.

[G26ster]

The officer involved has some serious need for additional training.

[puma guy]

The anamorphic distortion of the camera is also very misleading to the eye. Judging speed and distance is very is very difficult. I don't doubt the bike was traveling fast. That's apparent by his overtaking other vehicles. That he was speeding is not the issue, the manner of the stop is.
As the biker comes to a stop the unmarked car virtually cut him off . Even after back pedaling the unmarked car was very close to the front of the bike. The distance he back pedaled is not great, as I stated previously, the cop covered it in two steps. Watch the video. Count the steps from the back of the car not his exit.
Beside the behavior of the LEO captured by the video and without reading any thing into what the rider reacted to or saw that caused him to stop there are some very obvious things I don't see. There are no flashing lights on the B&W light bar after the stop and I didn't see any in the "look back" shot either, which is very, very odd. There is no siren. I had noticed there were no flash reflections off the bike mirrors nor the unmarked car when I first viewed it and went back to look again. We know for sure the unmarked car had to exceed the speed limit to catch up. The B&W probably did as as well. The unmarked undercover was breaking the law to enforce the law unless in Maryland it's legal for LEO's to drive with no lights or sirens at 80-100 MPH.
I haven't ridden bikes in years so the center stand remark earlier is probably wrong, but the guy did not move back very far and as I said earlier he could have fled by taking the exit to the right.
What I saw and heard is a guy in car jump out with gun in hand, unidentified yelling "Get off the motorcycle, get off the motorcyle, get off the motorcyle" delay "State Police". There is no siren in the background and no lights. Draw your own conclusions.

[Fangs]

I had a high school buddy who ran a red light at night in New Braunfels on a 600cc GSX-R. He then got on I-35, hauled like he usually did (120mph-ish) until he took his exit. All this while totally oblivious that a LEO had seen him run the light and had been trying to catch him from that point on. When the LEO finally caught up to him (sitting at the red light behind some cars on the frontage road), he thought it was because the LEO had seen him exit I-35 a little fast. So my buddy pulled into a parking lot and started taking off his gloves and undoing his helmet thinking that he'd be able to talk his way out of it.

A surprise felony stop ensued, he was ordered to the ground and handcuffed at gun point. Bike got towed (Not the time I talked about in the "Can LEOs Lie" topic). My buddy spent the night in jail for felony evasion. Later on he got it dropped to either a class A or B misdemeanor (I don't remember exactly).

In my buddy's case, I think he totally deserved what he got for being oblivious while riding like an idiot. This is why I make sure to always be aware of my surroundings when I'm on a bike. Though I think the gun drawn by a plain clothes LEO is overkill, it doesn't surprise me at all.

Are there different levels of acceptable force allowed for "felony stops", or are they just called that because everyone's ordered out of the car Handog style?

[KD5NRH]

Wow... pretty sure most if not all 1000cc crotch rockets do NOT come with center stands (at least I know CBR, GSX-R, and R1 models don't). Throw the center stand idea out the window.

Yes, of course, because nobody ever adds aftermarket equipment to their toys.

Took me all of ten seconds to find no-drill center stand add-ons for three different sport bikes with Google.

[puma guy]

Wow... pretty sure most if not all 1000cc crotch rockets do NOT come with center stands (at least I know CBR, GSX-R, and R1 models don't). Throw the center stand idea out the window.

Yes, of course, because nobody ever adds aftermarket equipment to their toys.

Took me all of ten seconds to find no-drill center stand add-ons for three different sport bikes with Google.

I'm afraid I'm not up to speed on that. It is not really that big a deal. The biker move a few feet backward. The officer who appears to be not too tall only needed two steps. We sometimes get focused on the minutiae. We try to analyze who was thinking what and reasons for actions, etc. The long version indicates the rider became aware of someone behind him and he came to a stop, He only looked backward once. There is no sound on the long version which is not helpful, but the short version shows no lights or siren. BTW i just snapped to my first sentence. No pun intended.

[PvilleStang]

Wow... pretty sure most if not all 1000cc crotch rockets do NOT come with center stands (at least I know CBR, GSX-R, and R1 models don't). Throw the center stand idea out the window.

Yes, of course, because nobody ever adds aftermarket equipment to their toys.

Took me all of ten seconds to find no-drill center stand add-ons for three different sport bikes with Google.

But why, WHY would you do such a thing? Fork pegs for the front forks for the long trips, too? Some ape hangers? A shotgun holster for the next time some unmarked cuts you off? Actually, I'm kind of liking where this is going. But, NO center stand! They make jacks for that.

[chabouk]

The biker move a few feet backward. The officer who appears to be not too tall only needed two steps.

Two steps from leaving his car to grabbing the bars. The "few feet backward" looks to me like he made three pads backward, which amounted to about 18 inches.

The guy clearly wasn't trying to escape, he was just backing up to regain a bit of personal space, just as any of us would do when confronted.

[flb_78]

But why, WHY would you do such a thing? Fork pegs for the front forks for the long trips, too? Some ape hangers? A shotgun holster for the next time some unmarked cuts you off? Actually, I'm kind of liking where this is going. But, NO center stand! They make jacks for that.

You've never been 500 miles from home with a flat tire on a motorcycle before then, have ya?

1 of the first items I added was a center stand after an episode in a Tulsa gas station parking lot, but then again, I don't ride a sport bike.