Heartland Mall, Early Texas

[KD5NRH]

Wow...with all due respect, I could not possibly disagree more. I am not sure what to say about the comment concerning not getting a CHL. Wow seems appropriate.

Well, you're the one claiming the cops will never know you have it, so what's the risk?

[03Lightningrocks]

Wow...with all due respect, I could not possibly disagree more. I am not sure what to say about the comment concerning not getting a CHL. Wow seems appropriate.

Well, you're the one claiming the cops will never know you have it, so what's the risk?

Does not come close to be a valid argument. Like I said...WOW!!! LOL. Your not breaking any law and you will not be arrested for carrying a weapon past the type of sign the OP mentioned as long as you have a CHL. I don't care what some ignorant back woods country fool of a cop thinks about it or how many days this same ignorant backwoods hill billy fool spent as a rent a cop. He flat out can't get away with arresting a person for just anything he decides is wrong. We are a nation of laws my man. Using your argument, I could be arrested for just anything a cop deems appropriate. I guess I should just stay home for fear of some cop deciding I am walking wrong and illegally throwing me in jail.

Again...let me repeat...YOU CAN"T BE LEGALLY ARRESTED FOR CARRYING PAST A GUN BUSTERS SIGN IF YOU HAVE A CHL. THAT WOULD BE ONE OF MY REASONS FOR HAVING A CHL. COPS CANNOT TELL IF YOUR ARMED OR NOT! IF THEY CAN. CHECK YOUR METHOD OF CARRY. IT MEANS YOU HAVE CHOSEN A POOR MEANS OF CARRY. A SECOND AND THE SINGLE BIGGEST REASON FOR HAVING A CHL IS IN THE CASE YOU HAVE TO USE IT TO DEFEND YOURSELF, YOU ARE COVERED LEGALLY FOR CARRYING A FIREARM CONCEALED. NOBODY KNOWS YOUR CARRYING. YOU GUYS THAT THINK THEY DO ARE BEING PARANOID BECAUSE OF SOME INNER FEELINGS OF GUILT ABOUT HAVING A DEADLY WEAPON ON YOU.

PS...LOL...Sorry about the all caps. Cap locks was on and it was easier to change the lower case in this sentences than all the letters.

[KD5NRH]

Your not breaking any law and you will not be arrested for carrying a weapon past the type of sign the OP mentioned as long as you have a CHL. I don't care what some ignorant back woods country fool of a cop thinks about it or how many days this same ignorant backwoods hill billy fool spent as a rent a cop. He flat out can't get away with arresting a person for just anything he decides is wrong.

Whether he can ultimately get away with it or not is irrelevant. He can certainly make the arrest, and if the prosecutor is also a backwoods hillbilly fool (quite likely in Brown county) there will be charges. As long as those charges are in effect the CHL will be suspended, and in my case, my guard card almost certainly will too, so I'll be out of work. Sure, I may eventually win a lawsuit against them, but in the meantime, somebody's going to have to feed me and pay my bills for several months. Last I checked, NRA, TSRA, etc don't claim to help with that.

COPS CANNOT TELL IF YOUR ARMED OR NOT! IF THEY CAN. CHECK YOUR METHOD OF CARRY. IT MEANS YOU HAVE CHOSEN A POOR MEANS OF CARRY.

Ah yes, an IWB tuckable is such a terrible means of carry. We're not talking about granny spotting a glock-shaped bulge under a too-tight shirt, we're talking about people trained to recognize things like 5.11, Galco, and Coronado products, the belt clips of an IWB holster, and other stuff that simply isn't going to be hidden short of wearing a trenchcoat all year. If they even suspect that you're carrying, all they have to do is ask for ID, and you're busted.

[03Lightningrocks]

If there is no violation of the law, no prosecutor can or will file charges...back woods prosecutor or otherwise. The laws of our country won't allow it.

Now on the other hand...the OP has been verbally told not to carry on mall premises. I am not sure, but I believe he may officially be 30:06ed. This alone is enough reason not to run around asking permission to carry a gun at every location we go to. The law is real darned clear on this...other than the usual prohibited locations...any place not post with a 30:06 sign are legal for us to carry. It is a Statewide law and even the dumbest of podunk prosecutors know the basics of the law and no penalty or prosecution will take place. Furthermore, you would NEVER lose your license for carrying ANYWHERE that you are legally allowed to carry. The example spelled out in your post would require a massive violation of your civil rights. Holy cow...I can only pray I get lucky enough to have this happen to me. Talk about hitting the mother load....LOL. I would own that city. It is not ever going to happen.

The fact remains...nothing can be gained by trying to fight a fight that does not need to be fought. As a CHL you can already carry at that location with NO risk of prosecution. On the other hand, making a big deal out of the sign and the fact that it is the wrong one to keep out CHL'ers, can cause them to spend the buck thirty five and buy the appropriate signs.

Oh well...I guess we will just have to agree to disagree in this situation.

[SlowDave]

I was thinking, the cop may suspect that you are carrying, but what gives him the right to come over and frisk you or otherwise prove his suspicion. He has to have reasonable cause to search you. But the deal about asking for ID and getting busted (for breaking a non-law) is a possibility. Question: does a cop have to have any kind of reasonable cause to ask you for your ID, or can they just walk up to any Tom, Dick, or Harry and say, "I'm bored, gimmee your license to read."?

My opinion here: you're making way too much of this. I would never have asked, never would have received verbal notice, I don't think the cop would make me and if he did, I don't think he'd really care. Even the Bubba Cop you found is one of however many (2?), and I don't know that if you were just walking by and he thought it looked like you were likely carrying (but not causing any trouble), whether he'd really get up the motivation to get the bullet out of his pocket and come over and confront you.

I... uh, people I know carry into the Texas Med Clinic over here that has a gunbusters sign on the front door. I don't ask, no one has ever asked me anything, we're all happy. Please don't come down here and give them a full semester course on how to restrict my rights, if you don't mind. I understand that is your option and you feel it's your calling or something, it's just that I'd rather you didn't.

Thanks and good luck with your interaction with those guys.

[wgoforth]

Your not breaking any law and you will not be arrested for carrying a weapon past the type of sign the OP mentioned as long as you have a CHL. I don't care what some ignorant back woods country fool of a cop thinks about it or how many days this same ignorant backwoods hill billy fool spent as a rent a cop. He flat out can't get away with arresting a person for just anything he decides is wrong.

Whether he can ultimately get away with it or not is irrelevant. He can certainly make the arrest, and if the prosecutor is also a backwoods hillbilly fool (quite likely in Brown county) there will be charges. As long as those charges are in effect the CHL will be suspended, and in my case, my guard card almost certainly will too, so I'll be out of work. Sure, I may eventually win a lawsuit against them, but in the meantime, somebody's going to have to feed me and pay my bills for several months. Last I checked, NRA, TSRA, etc don't claim to help with that.

COPS CANNOT TELL IF YOUR ARMED OR NOT! IF THEY CAN. CHECK YOUR METHOD OF CARRY. IT MEANS YOU HAVE CHOSEN A POOR MEANS OF CARRY.

Ah yes, an IWB tuckable is such a terrible means of carry. We're not talking about granny spotting a glock-shaped bulge under a too-tight shirt, we're talking about people trained to recognize things like 5.11, Galco, and Coronado products, the belt clips of an IWB holster, and other stuff that simply isn't going to be hidden short of wearing a trenchcoat all year. If they even suspect that you're carrying, all they have to do is ask for ID, and you're busted.

Yup, my point exactly, thanks. Remind me to buy you a cup of coffee, your only 54 miles from me. BTW, my son goes to Tarelton! I recall a post on here a while back where one fellow said he was in a store wearing a Desantis pouch and saw another guy wearing one too... they both looked at each others pouch, smiled, nodded their heads and kept going. According to some, I suppose that wasn't concealed? Cops know these products to. In fact I know several LEO's that either run gun shops, ranges or training classes.. of course they can spot that. I'd love for the mall to spend the money, get the proper sign, and have every chl carrier in town complain until they drop it. The mall is going broke anyway, they couldn't afford it. BUT, my hopes are they will put up the "No UNLICENSED firearm" signs.
Cheers and thanks again
Wayne

NRA member
CHL holder
North TX Firearm Academy in Urban Combat

Taurus 24/7 9mm
Taurus 24/7 Compact 9mm
Ruger LCP 380
Taurus 709 9mm
Sig Mosquito 22 cal
Mitchell 12 ga 7 shot 18.5 barrel

[KD5NRH]

: does a cop have to have any kind of reasonable cause to ask you for your ID, or can they just walk up to any Tom, Dick, or Harry and say, "I'm bored, gimmee your license to read."?

Reasonable articulable suspicion isn't going to be too tough to come up with in a mall. The car keys in your pocket could look like an easily shoplifted item, you could match a vague description of someone they're looking for, etc.

[Keith B]

....one fellow said he was in a store wearing a Desantis pouch and saw another guy wearing one too... they both looked at each others pouch, smiled, nodded their heads and kept going. According to some, I suppose that wasn't concealed?

According to the law, that IS concealed. It just can't be discernible to the average person. A LEO or another gun owner recognizing a pouch, purse or a bump under a shirt is a concealed weapon holster or holder is not unconcealed. If a LEO tells you different, they are wrong.

Now, does that mean they wouldn't now have reasonable suspicion that you were carrying and be able to ask if you were in a prohibited area? Yes, but it could not be considered unconcealed.

[karder]

A little off topic, but in regards to police officers giving us problems when they suspect we are carrying, I had a funny encounter about a week ago. I was at a public event in downtown El Paso and I was carrying a .40 HK USP in a 511 tactical vest. It was 100% concealed, and I had checked the event specifically to ensure it was not a prohibited area. I am there for about 2 hours, walked past a dozen cops providing security, no problem. All of sudden as I pass one, I feel him staring at me. He was an older guy and the only thing I can assume is that he recognized the vest. Well he starts following me around staying about 15 feet back. Hey, its a free world and I am not doing anything wrong, so the way I see it, I have a bodyguard...cool! He keeps tailing me and getting closer and closer until now he is following me about 3 feet behind. This goes on for about 5 minutes, and it is REALLY obvious he is walking behind me trying to spot the gun. Finally, as I can't pretend this isn't happening anymore, I stop, turn around, look at him and smile, and say "how's it going?". He seems to get embarrassed, does not smile or respond, just looks away really fast and walks on by as if we were both going in the same direction for the last 10 minutes! It was not a prohibited area unless I totally missed something, but I know this guy was looking really hard for a bump, strap, or glimpse of anything that would give him a reason to stop and question me. It was kind of silly. Now I don't know if I should re-think the vest in those situations, or if it passed with flying colors.

[wgoforth]

....one fellow said he was in a store wearing a Desantis pouch and saw another guy wearing one too... they both looked at each others pouch, smiled, nodded their heads and kept going. According to some, I suppose that wasn't concealed?

According to the law, that IS concealed. It just can't be discernible to the average person. A LEO or another gun owner recognizing a pouch, purse or a bump under a shirt is a concealed weapon holster or holder is not unconcealed. If a LEO tells you different, they are wrong.

Now, does that mean they wouldn't now have reasonable suspicion that you were carrying and be able to ask if you were in a prohibited area? Yes, but it could not be considered unconcealed.

AMEN, CORRECT, and so on and so forth ;)
That is the point I have been trying to make here. The mall sign and website says NO handguns, legal or illegal and the police who provide the security agree. That hs been my point to those who are claiming that IF an LEO can tell what it is, it's not concealed. It is concealed, but doesn't mean an experienced LEO or other gun fancier cannot tell what it is. it is still concealed.
Thanks
Wayne

[wgoforth]

A little off topic, but in regards to police officers giving us problems when they suspect we are carrying, I had a funny encounter about a week ago. I was at a public event in downtown El Paso and I was carrying a .40 HK USP in a 511 tactical vest. It was 100% concealed, and I had checked the event specifically to ensure it was not a prohibited area. I am there for about 2 hours, walked past a dozen cops providing security, no problem. All of sudden as I pass one, I feel him staring at me. He was an older guy and the only thing I can assume is that he recognized the vest. Well he starts following me around staying about 15 feet back. Hey, its a free world and I am not doing anything wrong, so the way I see it, I have a bodyguard...cool! He keeps tailing me and getting closer and closer until now he is following me about 3 feet behind. This goes on for about 5 minutes, and it is REALLY obvious he is walking behind me trying to spot the gun. Finally, as I can't pretend this isn't happening anymore, I stop, turn around, look at him and smile, and say "how's it going?". He seems to get embarrassed, does not smile or respond, just looks away really fast and walks on by as if we were both going in the same direction for the last 10 minutes! It was not a prohibited area unless I totally missed something, but I know this guy was looking really hard for a bump, strap, or glimpse of anything that would give him a reason to stop and question me. It was kind of silly. Now I don't know if I should re-think the vest in those situations, or if it passed with flying colors.

Yup, and as I am told here, he would have asked you if you have one, you would have taken a ride....spent some time in the pokey until your lawyer explained the law. Few thousand dollars and hours later, your free!
Wayne

[03Lightningrocks]

LOL....the only one who would take a ride for carrying in that mall with a CHL is you. They have not verbally forbid the rest of us. AGAIN...nobody is going to get arrested for carrying in that mall. It sounds a little bit like the movie Mall Cop...LOL. P.S. I don't carry in a fanny pack. I carry IWB with a shirt left un-tucked hanging over it. I also utilize a super tuck...neither shows any hint of my having a firearm. Everyone around here wears shirts just like I do so there is nothing unusual about my dress style. On the fanny pack issue....LOL....the folks I do know that carry them don't even know how to shoot a gun. I guess I will warn them that there is a single cop out there who rousts everyone wearing fanny packs because he knows that .00001 % of the 2% of the total population that has a CHL...MIGHT be using them to LEGALLY conceal a gun.

Seriously...this is a real far fetched reach to justify making an issue out of something that is NOT affecting the RKBA. It is kind of like making a stink out of having a red light at an intersection that has no red light because a cop said you better stop there anyway.

[wgoforth]

LOL....the only one who would take a ride for carrying in that mall with a CHL is you. They have not verbally forbid the rest of us. AGAIN...nobody is going to get arrested for carrying in that mall. It sounds a little bit like the movie Mall Cop...LOL. P.S. I don't carry in a fanny pack. I carry IWB with a shirt left un-tucked hanging over it. I also utilize a super tuck...neither shows any hint of my having a firearm. Everyone around here wears shirts just like I do so there is nothing unusual about my dress style. On the fanny pack issue....LOL....the folks I do know that carry them don't even know how to shoot a gun. I guess I will warn them that there is a single cop out there who rousts everyone wearing fanny packs because he knows that .00001 % of the 2% of the total population that has a CHL...MIGHT be using them to LEGALLY conceal a gun.

Seriously...this is a real far fetched reach to justify making an issue out of something that is NOT affecting the RKBA. It is kind of like making a stink out of having a red light at an intersection that has no red light because a cop said you better stop there anyway.

Lighting, like you and many others, I too carry in places that do not have a properly displayed sign. This one is different due to the fact the LEO are uninformed. They do not agree that anyone other than the verbally instructed may carry. So this has nothing to do with "The only one verbally instructed is you, the rest have not been." They do not agree they have to warn by any means other than the sign. Again, not mall cops...it is state troopers and city cops who are under the impression that it is a no-gun-zone. I am really tired of beating this dead horse, as so many wish to compare it to places where cops know different but the shopkeepers don't. This one they agree on. Yes, you'll get exonerated... Would we not all agree it would be better for them to simply post a "no unlicensed firearm" sign? I never thought this would raise such a fuss.

Wayne

[DONT TREAD ON ME]

it seems to me that 'some' here need to review the laws and what is a valid sign to a CHLer.

that same 'some' should also probably reconsider their carry methods.
I carry a government 1911 and/or a XD 4" service model.
NEVER been outed and NEVER worry about it either. concealed means concealed. I properly conceal my firearms (as do most others here).
if your worried about being outed then your prolly not properly concealing.

I also agree...LET THE IGNORANT ALONE!
as stated above. It may be posted invalid for a reason.
if its invalid who cares.
the law is the law. if its not a valid 30.06 YOU CAN CARRY!

as for getting arrested...they cannot arrest you and/or charge you for a crime that you did not commit.
if its not 30.06 then its not against the law.
its in balck and white!

quit over-analyzing.

carry and be happy!

[lonewolf]

This thing is getting stretched waaaaaaaaaaaay out......

My last 2¢ on this:

If the sign is illegal, you shouldn't be prosecutable. If you have been verbally notified, you are prosecutable. I would not "out" myself to expose the illegal sign, just go on about my business. If the local law enforcement is not properly educated, that is unfortunate. There are MANY laws they are responsible for enforcing, and I seriously doubt that they have an actual in-depth familiarity with all of them. That is why there are lawyers with legal libraries and paralegals who assist them. That's why there are judges and district attorneys and defense attorneys. We should know the laws we are dealing with. If you are not comfortable with them, then work to change them. I will do my utmost to remain within the law on what I do. If the mall made the effort to have the sign, its their responsibility to make sure its legal. Not mine.

This is a sword that cuts two ways. A personal decision. You make it. If you want to carry in there and ignore the signs, then do so. If you want them to be legal, let them know. Easy as that.

If I witness a crime such as burglary or murder, I will be a witness. If I see a noncompliant sign posted, I don't care about it. Its not a crime.

All of this is in my humble opinion, of course, and in no way is meant to cause any strife or heartache with anyone. Just my 2¢.

Thanks for your time, and have a nice evening!