A disappointing State Fair episode 10-1-09

[Brazos]

This is my first post to this site and I am so upset that I could not let it pass.
The State Fair of Texas does not decide if a CHL is allowed to carry on the fairgrounds. That decision was made for them by our founding fathers and the Texas State Legislature. The fairgrounds are government property and owned by the citizens. Yes, WE own it and just because the State Fair is renting the property does not allow them to supersede our state’ laws. Period.
The State Fair of Texas cannot, legally, post a 30.06 or verbally deny a CHL the right to carry on the fairgrounds. I’m not sure why a CHL would not understand the difference. In addition, the State Fair cannot, legally, add conditions to the carry law in order for a CHL to enter. Logging personal information, SSN, car registration, etc. or WHATEVER else they THINK they can require is simply not legal and is a violation of the CHL law pertaining to our right to carry on government property. The law is VERY clear.
This just a chipping away at our rights to carry and I am calling the State Fair of Texas right now to verify their policy, and if correct, am calling the NRA Institute for Legislative Action. I encourage you to do the same.
“The greatest menace to Freedom is an inert people.”
State Fair of Texas - 214-565-9931 press O for assistance
NRA Institute for Legislative Action – 800.392.8683

[BrianSW99]

I understand the outrage over this policy and am upset about it myself, but what law exactly says that a private organization cannot collect your CHL number? From my reading, there isn't one.

[texxas guy]

This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard! Do they have someone from New York running the Texas state fair now? What's next, armed guards at the gate asking " Your Papers Please". Bravo to you for not caving in and giving your personal info, as there is no way they would have gotten mine. It seems to me that a CHL should be proof enough that a law-abiding citizen is entering their grounds! I would be interested to hear Mr. Cotton's opinion of this episode. God, this is TEXAS folks! What the heck is going on here?

[gemini]

I understand the outrage over this policy and am upset about it myself, but what law exactly says that a private organization cannot collect your CHL number? From my reading, there isn't one.

I believe what is not written in law is as important as what is written. Nothing prevents you from voluntarily giving your
private, personal information to anyone else or any corporation. However, in this instance, trying to obtain my information
under duress, with the penalty of non-compliance being refused entrance to a publicly owned property was not the intention of our legislators. They were specific in required signage, specific in areas you could and could not carry, specific in banning release of CHL information to the general public or with a "open records" request, specific in banning municipalities from making up their own rules.
They also specifically DID NOT authorize any leasee of government property, or corporation to collect, log, record or store personal, private information related to the legal CHL.
What happens to the information they collect? Is it stored in a data base? Kept as part of State Fair records from year to year? Is the information released or sold to a 3rd party? A the very, very least....is the collected information shredded at days end? Is the gate supervisor or person collecting the information reputable? Former felon? Criminal, civil background checks? etc etc etc etc

[texxas guy]

I understand the outrage over this policy and am upset about it myself, but what law exactly says that a private organization cannot collect your CHL number? From my reading, there isn't one.

I believe what is not written in law is as important as what is written. Nothing prevents you from voluntarily giving your
private, personal information to anyone else or any corporation. However, in this instance, trying to obtain my information
under duress, with the penalty of non-compliance being refused entrance to a publicly owned property was not the intention of our legislators. They were specific in required signage, specific in areas you could and could not carry, specific in banning release of CHL information to the general public or with a "open records" request, specific in banning municipalities from making up their own rules.
They also specifically DID NOT authorize any leasee of government property, or corporation to collect, log, record or store personal, private information related to the legal CHL.
What happens to the information they collect? Is it stored in a data base? Kept as part of State Fair records from year to year? Is the information released or sold to a 3rd party? A the very, very least....is the collected information shredded at days end? Is the gate supervisor or person collecting the information reputable? Former felon? Criminal, civil background checks? etc etc etc etc

+1000!!!! Especially the last part on what happens to this info? They don't exactly hire mental giants to work the gate. Again, kudos to you for taking a stand.

[The Annoyed Man]

AFAIK, only Law Enforcement is entitled by law to access your CHL information. That is deliberate. Nobody else - reporters, agitators, etc., - has a lawful access to your information. So when the Fair asks for a written record of it, they are asking for a privilege to which they are not lawfully entitled. They might as well be asking for the combination to your gun safe.

I would have asked the security guy:

A) Who has access to these records you write down?
B) How long do you keep them?
C) How are they stored and secured?
D) How do you dispose of them when you are done?
E) How heavily insured are you against the accidental/deliberate dissemination of my CHL information to a 3rd party without my permission?
F) Are you still sure that this is what you insist on?

I'm sure that nobody is going to like their answers.

DARN it!! The wifey and I were going to go this week. Now I don't think so.

[Edited to amend item E) .... without my permssion]

[STI Shooter]

This is only one of the many reasons I don't go to the fair anymore. I applaude your standing up to a bully, ( and that is just what they are doing) and hope that you are victorious for the sake of the rest of us poor souls.

[KFP]

This is an issue to get the TSRA involved in as well - I think that they will make a lot of headway and quickly.

[karl]

Some good points made on the privacy of information. Under stress from this circumstance it wouldn't have even crossed my mind not to allow them access to that information even though my folks have had info stolen in Paris (crazy French waiters ).

I salute your stance for your rights, gemini, good job.

[Rough_Ashlar]

This is unbelievable..... I went last year (with no problems) and was planning on the train trip this year to go. I'm glad I stopped by here first to look things over.

what i might do is ask for the personal information of all parties that would have access to my information,to see how THEY like it.....

I might even go without my CCW and try and get in *pretending* i was armed just to cause trouble


good luck to all trying to get this resolved.

[gemini]

Guys, here's a brief update.
1.So far I have not heard from St Rep Joe Drivers office.
2.I have heard from St Rep Allan Vaught's office. They are having a DPS attorney contact
me either today or Monday to discuss this issue. A call I look forward to receiving.
3. My attorney has contacted the St Fair Gen Man office regarding this matter. Waiting for
a call back from them.
4. Mark Davis responded in a positive way. Will he use this incident on his show? At this time I
don't know. He did support standing my ground on this issue.
5. I tried to email Jon-David Wells @ Klif. The email came back to me as if THEY had sent it and
I was the recipient. I then tried calling the numbers listed on the web site, no answer. I then called and
left a msg with the programming dept requesting they have J-D Wells contact me if interested in this
story. So far I have heard nothing.

I have several others I am considering contacting. It's almost 5:00 on Fri. Most everyone is headed
home. I guess I'll have to wait until Monday to continue to force the State Fair to either abide by the law
as written, or violate the law and post 30.06. You can't have it both ways. You can't obey one part of the law
and disregard the other.

[C-dub]

Well, I just got off the phone with Mr. Ledbetter. Boy is he one polite, but ignorant man. He wouldn't allow me to provide him with any evidence of his ignorance. Of course, I didn't use the word "ignorant" in our short conversation. I had hoped to have an intelligent polite conversation. Oh well, 1 out of 2 is pretty good in baseball. He was of the opinion that since the fair is privately owned they even have the right to deny a CHL holder entry solely because they have a weapon if they wanted to. However, when I pointed out that while the fair may be privately owned they do not own the property, but are leasing it from the city and therefore cannot, according to state law, prohibit a CHL holder from carrying into the fair he just started shutting down and wouldn't accept any further information.

My guess is the fair and Mr. Ledbetter are getting flooded with inquiries on this subject!

[gemini]

Well, I just got off the phone with Mr. Ledbetter. Boy is he one polite, but ignorant man. He wouldn't allow me to provide him with any evidence of his ignorance. Of course, I didn't use the word "ignorant" in our short conversation. I had hoped to have an intelligent polite conversation. Oh well, 1 out of 2 is pretty good in baseball. He was of the opinion that since the fair is privately owned they even have the right to deny a CHL holder entry solely because they have a weapon if they wanted to. However, when I pointed out that while the fair may be privately owned they do not own the property, but are leasing it from the city and therefore cannot, according to state law, prohibit a CHL holder from carrying into the fair he just started shutting down and wouldn't accept any further information.

My guess is the fair and Mr. Ledbetter are getting flooded with inquiries on this subject!

C-dub, your opinion of Steve Ledbetter and mine are similar. One of the reasons I did not become defensive was his
attitude; basically "because I said so, it's so". There is no way to reason with a person that has none. While reading me
how the cow ate the cabbage.... he got very close, voice raised above normal volume and proceeded to do what I call, the
finger poke while scolding. No, he didn't actually touch my chest. He would stop about 1 or 2" away from contact. However,
the physical gesture is usually one of aggression. I tried to only include relevant facts in my original post. Items like the
finger poke while scolding, I don't scare that easy, so it and a few things of this nature were left off.
Thanks for making your voice heard. I figure if enough folks stand up for their rights.... it will be harder for them to be eroded
or lost.

[joe817]

Gemini, OUTSTANDING ! If ever there ever a cause for us as a collective group to stand firm with our rights, and let it be known, this is the one. I hope the media people get back in touch with you.

Well done!

C-dub, great work! Thank you! I'll do a follow up in Monday.

I totally agree with KFP. This is one issue I believe the TSRA would WANT to become involved with. The State Fair is for ALL Texans throughout the State of ours. I hope Charles reads this thread, and give us his opinion.

[C-dub]

I also sent an e-mail to their PR department at pr@bigtex.com outlining my concerns and some of yours. I included TAM's 6 questions. I hope you didn't mind TAM. Maybe more of us could express our concerns to this office?