Would it have been justified?

[howdy]

More thoughts:

Like I said in my last post, this incident probably took place in just a few seconds. We in this forum have had 2-3 days to mull this over and you can see the variety of opinions. Think how much time the DA, Judge, Jury, etc will have to judge your actions.

Have a special word/phrase with your spouse/significant other that means they are not to question what you say. When they hear that word/phrase, they are to do what you say NOW and question the "whys" later. I use a curse phrase that I normally don't say to my wife. She knows to do exactly what I say NOW without hesitation. We as CHL holders hopefully have better situational awareness than the average Joe and we might see a threat that our spouse does not see. You can't or shouldn't run off and leave your wife. (I can't wait to see the comments on that)

If I see a perceived threat, I try to avoid it. I will cross the street, walk off the sidewalk to the parking lot, turn around while watching the threat, go back inside where I came from etc. If it insults the threat, tough. I don't care about his feelings. I care about my safety and his longivity.

Hands kill. Watch their hands. Demand to see the hands of a perceived threat.

Use your authoritative voice. Let them know you mean business. DO NOT verbally threaten. Your body language speaks for you. If you do shoot, you have legal rights. The only statement out of my mouth is "I was so scared, I thought he was going to kill me". Get a good gun Lawyer like Mr. Cotton to represent you from the get-go. Let him do the talking for you. You are probably innocent but a politician DA can ruin your whole day.

[03Lightningrocks]

Wow...it sounds to me like you were a bit quick to pull your gun. The cable guy posed zero threat by simply walking towards you. It is a little frightening for me to think that some of us would pull a gun on a person for simply walking towards us. Those of us that live in the city all should realize that city services folks are constantly out and about our neighborhoods every day working hard to keep all of our luxuries working properly. let's not accidentally blast one of them while they are attempting to run cable or repair wiring in the city easements that exists all along the sides of every one of our homes.

[joe817]

[howdy]

03Lightningrocks and joe817:

Obviously I either did not make my post clear or you did not read it correctly.

This little "confession" was meant as a learning tool for readers. The workers did nothing wrong, I misinterpreted the "facts", and there was a good outcome. Things are not always what they seem is the lesson here.

It was now dark, they were not wearing uniforms, they had no business on my driveway (100' long with cars at end), car hatchback up, rattled my door.

When is someone a threat to you...when they have their hands around your throat, knife in your gut, gun in your face. The guy never saw the gun.

[Fangs]

I think Howdy did just fine for what he thought was someone trying to open his door at first and then seeing his car's hatch open. It's not like he aimed at the guy.

[newlife12176]

Howdy:

I do not agree with Lightning Rocks. I am very grateful that you posted that. As you stated, it is for learning purposes and will be benificial to anyone who has a CHL. I do not think you drew your weapon prematurely. You did what you felt like you needed to do at the time and none of us can say we will do anything different given the immediate circumstances. There are quite a few predetermining factors that we dont know as we were not there. All of us can say what we would have done or should have done....thank you.

[roberts]

They were trespassing after dark? You did the right thing.

[Excaliber]

03Lightningrocks and joe817:

Obviously I either did not make my post clear or you did not read it correctly.

This little "confession" was meant as a learning tool for readers. The workers did nothing wrong, I misinterpreted the "facts", and there was a good outcome. Things are not always what they seem is the lesson here.

It was now dark, they were not wearing uniforms, they had no business on my driveway (100' long with cars at end), car hatchback up, rattled my door.

When is someone a threat to you...when they have their hands around your throat, knife in your gut, gun in your face. The guy never saw the gun.

The discussion of howdy's post has brought up some great points.

When the hairs on the back of your neck stand straight up and your "spidey sense" tingles, that's good enough reason to make sure your tactical positioning, equipment, next move plan, and coordination with other innocent parties is in order. As folks have correctly pointed out, waiting to see the final outcome before you take any action will put you behind the OODA loop curve when the action starts, but taking too much action too early can put you on the wrong side of the law (and behind bars).

This is a good opportunity to remind ourselves that being concerned or even afraid in a situation doesn't in itself constitute justification for the use or threat to use any level of force, let alone deadly force.

From the details howdy provided, he certainly had reason to be suspicious. Saturday evening at dusk is not when cable folks normally clean up loose ends on a cable burial, but these folks are usually subcontractors who work on their own schedule, so it could be legitimate.

Ringing a doorbell is neutral, but trying or shaking a door to see if it opens (if that's what actually caused the sounds howdy heard) is not something well intentioned folks normally do.

Arming oneself under the circumstances described would certainly be prudent to make sure one has appropriate options if the situation deteriorates. However, drawing the gun, even if it isn't seen, is getting really close to the line you don't want to cross without clear justification.

Under circumstances like this my take on a prudent course of action would be to position oneself inside the home to provide distance, physical barriers, and a reactionary gap you can work with, talk to the parties in question either from or through the door, check with the company that sent them to clarify what's really going on, and leave the gun in the holster unless and until the need to deploy it with clear justification arises.

Going outside to check things out is inadvisable. It puts you at unnecessary risk, separates you from family members who may need your protection, and puts you in an exposed position which severely limits your response options. This is especially dangerous in a situation where at least 2 people whose intentions are suspect are known to be present.

[howdy]

I should have stayed in the house. This particular Glock is not in a holster (downstairs gun) and I carried it outside. I have a unobstructed view of the driveway that usually afords me to be unseen. At the time, I didn't know they were from the cable company.

Next time, I will stay in the house and let them show their true intentions. I will also follow the old rule of "if you think there is going to be a gunfight, bring a long gun".(or something like that) Actually, if you think there is going to be a gun fight, don't go.

I would also be in a WHOLE LOT better position legally if they came inside vs me going outside.

Is there a spot on this forum for "true confessions"? It would be a great learning tool for us to see others mistakes, etc without someone calling your intelligence in question.

[Keith B]

Is there a spot on this forum for "true confessions"? It would be a great learning tool for us to see others mistakes, etc without someone calling your intelligence in question.

Yes, the section is called Never Again and is meant for that purpose.

[Excaliber]

I should have stayed in the house. This particular Glock is not in a holster (downstairs gun) and I carried it outside. I have a unobstructed view of the driveway that usually afords me to be unseen. At the time, I didn't know they were from the cable company.

Next time, I will stay in the house and let them show their true intentions. I will also follow the old rule of "if you think there is going to be a gunfight, bring a long gun".(or something like that) Actually, if you think there is going to be a gun fight, don't go.

I would also be in a WHOLE LOT better position legally if they came inside vs me going outside.

Is there a spot on this forum for "true confessions"? It would be a great learning tool for us to see others mistakes, etc without someone calling your intelligence in question.

Howdy,

I hope you didn't interpret any of my posted remarks as calling your intelligence into question. That certainly was not my intent.

Whenever a real life situation is posted on the forum, it is explored, questioned, whatif'd, and shoulda'd to squeeze every last usable lesson from it. By definition, we all need to keep in mind that this is done in hindsight with the luxury of time and without the pressure of making potentially life altering decisions in a matter of seconds. I think we all realize that's a lot easier than coming up with a plan of action and following it through in real time in the presence of a potential threat.

In my view, you didn't do badly at all - no one was injured, your visitors were not unduly alarmed, you didn't get in any trouble, and you suffered no loss. You had a real life opportunity to go through a potential threat identification and response process, and to reconsider what you would do again and what you would do differently next time. You may even have picked up a couple of good ideas gleaned from the feedback from other forum members. This is a pretty happy situation overall.

I personally thank you for your generosity in sharing the experience so others could think about it, learn from it, and reconsider how they would handle a similar situation. I hope you and the other members will continue to post these incidents for comment to improve everyone's ability to think their way responsibly through a situation and respond in a solid, well thought out manner when they encounter challenges in their own lives.

[joe817]

howdy, I certainly did not mean to insult your intelligence, and apologize if you took it that way. I might have done exactly the same, given the same circumstances. My comment was more of a reinforcing mechanism for ME than a comment directed at you.

You showed restraint, which is absolutely necessary when a CHL holder. I applaud you for your sense of awareness.

[03Lightningrocks]

Is there a spot on this forum for "true confessions"? It would be a great learning tool for us to see others mistakes, etc without someone calling your intelligence in question.

Yes, the section is called Never Again and is meant for that purpose.

I certainly did not mean to imply you were not intelligent. You may be the smartest feller in the world , but still make a mistake on occasion. That is how smart people learn in my humble opinion.

I work under the belief that a person posts his experience here in an effort to read what others may think of how to handle that experience. we all learn from this.

I live in a fairly large city called Plano. We are constantly having cable run, electric lines worked on, water and sewer guys...you name it. I am accustomed to seeing yard guys and all kinds of rough looking individuals all over my neighborhood. I may be a bit too relaxed and get caught bad one day. I always have my weapon holstered when checking out what is what outside just in case, but then again, I am single now and my kids are grown and gone, so I have the luxury of having to defend only myself. For me, if I ever pull my weapon out, I am about to fire. I really do feel like it would be my very last resort and I want to be darned sure that firing on another person is what I have to do.

Anyway....one part of your post that I had not read properly is were you mentioned he never saw the weapon. That part is good, because had he seen the weapon, he might have wigged out and who knows what kind of mess could have happened.

Sorry if i came off insulting like...I really did not mean to.

[dewayneward]

I like the idea of a true confessions outside of the "never again" forum.

I read over Howdy's "confession" and I woulda done the exact same thing he did. Actually, if I saw my spouses hatchback open, it could have been that she was taking groceries in, who knows. My biggest beef was for the poster that said that taking the gun out of the holster was premature. Now, we later learned that this wasnt a "holstered" gun, but if there is a perceived threat (and in this case they were multiple threats), my hipoint will be unholstered and pointed down to the ground or at the very least my hand will be on it. I do agree, however, that it would have been better to stay in the house, but I would have done a mental of check of where my family was (if they were outside, then I am going outside).

Good story, hope to hear more of them.

[USA1]

I like the idea of a true confessions outside of the "never again" forum.

warning...i've got some doozies ....like that one time in high school that i...never mind